Powerboost Cavitating Noise on Cold Start

[DMuiser]

Update: Got my truck into the quick lane at the Ford dealer this morning and they found that it was, in fact, 1 quart low. Going to park it nose down in the driveway tonight and see how it reacts tomorrow morning! ?

Just wanted to clarify was it engine oil that was low or was it transmission fluid that was low? As it seems to have fixed your problem so far.

Sponsored

 

[AndrewMC]

It was ATF that was a quart low, according to them. The level on my dipstick is now between 1-2, closer to 1 whereas, according to Ford’s documentation, it should be between 3-4. However, the problem is completely gone now and the truck drives the same.

I sent this information, in detail, over to my case worker at @Ford Motor Company so they could review any possible errors in their documentation or understanding of the differences between the requirements for the Powerboost vs the Ecoboost. Waiting for a reply.

Is there a TSB for this yet that we know of? Would like to have mine looked at as I've heard this too when pointed downhill and cold. I know my dealer will give me the "can't duplicate" BS. If I could reference a TSB or just tell them even when level the fluid is likely low and to check and fill if needed...

 

[AndrewMC]

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem so. And I haven’t heard a peep back from my “case representative” at @Ford Motor Company after sharing very clear and complete details on the matter. Seems they prefer to ignore the issue.

Those are bots I always ignore those messages I haven't heard of any meaningful discussion that's resulted in those posts. I'll need to get mine on video and bring it in when I get an inspection.

 

[AndrewMC]

I had an actual individual call and speak with me and email me with a case number. I emailed them back with all of the aforementioned info and crickets…

That's almost worse...

 

[Snakebitten]

That's almost worse...

Not almost
I'd rather not have it implied that help was being offered by the brand, if it's not going to be help.

In business, that's literally an insult. It certainly can feel that way.

 

[Gros Ventre]

Ford technical documentation provided to dealers is not accurate. I've had my transmission fluid changed three times. The first time it ended up getting "overfilled" and wouldn't engage gears and move until they reduced the level by a quart. They had to both reduce the level and reset the computer by disconnecting both the main 12vdc battery & the smaller auxiliary 12vdc battery. Then............. the first cold day (15ºF) it made a horrendous noise on startup... had it looked at by another dealer (to include a posting by the FoMoCo guys) who added about a quart & a half... Ran fine after that... then some 15k miles later had fluid changed again and had another noise issue.... took back & they ended up adding some more fluid... Then......... had fluid changed again and told them to measure how much fluid came out.................Ta.....Da...... 7 1/2 qts came out........so they added in 7 1/2 qts... seemes to be operating fine.......... I believe Ford has not really figured out how to refill all those nooks & crannies they have to refill in that transmission.... So, hang on to your hats folks...

 

[SouthParkCo2]

I am personally convinced that the fluid level IS behind a lot of symptoms and complaints on these 10r80 transmissions.
And it's not an easy task to address for the average truck owner because it requires a thoroughly warmed up transmission, which on these trucks can take a lengthy amount of time. In some instances it's very difficult to get the transmission up to 205-215F.
And then when it IS at that temperature, it's a nasty situation to get to the dipstick, as well as properly top it off.

Man I miss the old school under the hood dipstick and fill tube.

From last March, the procedure for checking the PB trans fluid level .............. https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/thr...ing-cold-start-on-powerboost.7088/post-180138


The transcript of my online conversation with .... Shop Talk@CarShopTalk


Quoted:


" DD Butikofer
8 months ago

I've looked at the online manual for my 2022 F150 Power Boost, but no number for the transmission level, could I find. If someone knows the full level number and could share it, thanks in advance!


Shop Talk



8 months ago

I had to look that one up. I don't think I've had to check one of the hybrid F-150 yet. The correct level is between 3 and 4, transmission between 206F-215F with engine running, but do they ever have a procedure to check it. They have a continous engine running mode they want the vehicle placed in to check the fluid level. I'll do my best not to leave out any steps. vehicle in park, ignition off 1)Apply the parking brake (do not press the brake pedal) 2)Turn ignition on, leave engine off 3)Within 5 seconds fully depress the brake pedal and accelerator pedal at the same time and hold for 10 seconds. 4)Within 5 seconds, release only the accelerator pedal and engage engine start mode (ignition on, engine running) 5)Fully press the accelerator pedal for 10 seconds or until the green READY indicator turns off and starts flashing once every 3 seconds indicating the vehicle is in the engine running diagnostics mode. If the green READY indicator doesn't turn off after 10 seconds, cycle the ignition and start over 6)Release the brake and accelerator pedals. The engine should remain running continuously. The correct level is between 3 and 4. We all learned something today ;-)

DD Butikofer
8 months ago (edited)

@Shop Talk - Thank You!! I'll share this on some forums that I'm following. This will likely help dozens of Power Boost owners in the near future! Thanks again!! [Is it safe to assume the dipstick needs to be fully re threaded to reach the correct level for a valid reading?]

Shop Talk

8 months ago (edited)

@DD Butikofer fully re-threaded or most of them pull out of the cap and just fully insert it in the transmission. There’s a shoulder, you can’t put it in too far or drop it in the transmission.


DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk Update 3-20-22 : So, I took it on myself to follow the transmission oil check procedure outlined above. Only a couple very small burns from the process. I did two readings as shown in the attached pictures. If I did it right, I'm absolutely low on fluid as well. The relationship to the cold start noise remains uncertain to me, but being this low can't be good. The reading I got was between 5 and 6. The correct reading is suppose to be between 3 and 4. My truck is 2 full marks/quarts/liters/who knows low, it seems. My Ford dealership appointment is tomorrow morning, 7am. [For an undetermined period of time I'm told]. At the least, I now have something to show the guys who will be troubleshooting my truck. When I know more, I'll pass it along....

Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer please do. What kind of a noise do you have?

DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk I've been trying to post a link to Google Drive where I have a sound clip .... but YouTube is disappearing my replies to you

DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk - Mine is like this .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4L3HUrcUs&ab_channel=NickB.



DD Butikofer
7 months ago (edited)

@Shop Talk - Like this as well ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wh16Q-4Us&ab_channel=NS

Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer it’s always hard to tell from a video, but it reminds me of a truck we looked at a while ago. The tin separator plate between the engine and transmission was contacting the torque converter studs on cold start up. Things expanded a little when it warmed up and the noise went away. There was a TSB on that one for it, I’m not aware of anything on the 21 or 22’s, but that’s what it reminds me of.



DD Butikofer
7 months ago (edited)

@Shop Talk - Right now I'm not sure if a 'fix' is available or what it might be. But, I dropped my truck off this morning with pictures of the low fluid level [truck has 880 miles] and was told they'd look at that as well...

Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer Let me know what they say.



DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk So, I picked up my truck yesterday afternoon from the Ford dealership. They had it for four days and 20 miles of test drives. They could not duplicate the cold weather idle noise [no surprise, much warmer temps]. They checked the trans fluid level for me and also found it to be "Good". I would have talked to the tech who worked on my truck, but he was at "Ford School". At my request, they printed out a 7 page document with the trans fluid check procedure [307-01B for 2022 F-150 Rev. Date 12/13/2021]. It's the identical twin of the procedure you outlined above. .... Because I may be/must be OCD, I set my truck up [level, running in diagnostic mode, & at normal operating temp per the gauges] shortly after getting home. So I could verify their "Good" determination. My results once again matched my previous results from last Sunday. Trans fluid level remains at midway between 5 & 6...... A spec level of between 3 & 4, per the printed document I received, is what I should be seeing and I'm still not. So if the numbered marks on the trans fluid indicator are about at 1 quart increments, I'm roughly 2 quarts low. I also took a reading with the motor off and it was between 2 & 3 [crowding the 2 mark]. Two things: 1) I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong when I check the trans fluid. Who do I believe, the dealership or my lying eyes? 2) At this point, I'm seriously considering buying 2 qts. of MERCON/Valvoline ULV fluid and bring the trans up to specs. I'd certainly, once again, appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks much!

Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer “Ford School.” I’ll bet I know what class he was at. I have to go to training myself next week for the first time in years. If you’re following the procedure and think it’s low, top it off if they won’t. The numbers aren’t quarts. I would guess 3/4 of a quart would probably raise it to the correct level, but I’d probably start with half a quart because it’s a pain to get back out if you over fill it. I’d want it full either way, but I doubt your problem is low fluid. With low fluid the symptoms I would expect is no engagement for 4 or 5 seconds in extreme cold weather. It causes other issues too, but usually that’s the first thing noticeable. You put in in gear first thing in the morning and nothing happens for several seconds. On the hybrid version it would probably occur when the gas engine starts, since they usually start driving on electric and bypass the torque converter till the gas engine starts. Although the transmission still needs to hydraulically engage clutch packs so……… I may need more coffee to think about this lol. The video that you sent me the links to, I really think was the torque convertor bolts were rubbing the separator plate between the engine and the transmission. I had a Ford truck doing that a while back, probably like a 2019, not a hybrid, but similar transmission. That truck would only act up first thing in the morning for maybe 60 seconds if we parked it outside and it was very cold out. Made a horrible noise for about a minute and then it would just go away. Expansion as things warmed up I suppose. There was a TSB on that truck, and I haven’t seen anything on newer trucks or hybrids, but it seems like it’s probably the same issue. I think you said you had a video of it, so I definitely would show that to them or give them a copy of it. Every clue helps for diagnosis. If that is the problem and it’s similar to the one we looked at, it may not do it again till next winter. And that’s going to make it nearly impossible to diagnose until then. It’s not a good situation for you as the owner knowing something is wrong with the truck, or for the dealer trying to diagnose a problem they can’t see. Is it still making the noise or has it stopped as the weather warmed up?




DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk - Thank you for thinking this through. I had no video of my truck but I did/do have an mp3 audio file which I did provide to them. As well as a couple of pictures of my low trans fluid level taken as I crawled out from under.... They did accept that I was hearing a problem and though they could not reproduce it, they told me my truck was documented as having a customer reported issue [so there is that]. I, like many others [many who have posted videos on YouTube], only had the issue when ambient temps were some where below 10 degrees F. The noise on an unmoved truck is typically reported as being 5-10 minutes in length. Mine was quite lengthy as well. Spring is coming in Colorado fortunately....... no noise now. On bringing the trans fluid level up to snuff, I'm assuming that getting the truck level, in continuous run mode, and at fully normal operating temp would be the correct starting point to add fluid?


Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer yes, level, engine running and proper temperature.



DD Butikofer
7 months ago

@Shop Talk - In conclusion, I added ULV fluid to my F150 Power Boost today. It still was between 5 and 6 before I added fluid. It took almost exactly 16 Oz [1/2 quart] to bring it up to specification level [centered between 3 and 4 on the dip stick]. Current truck odometer is 950.1 miles. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge! It's certainly helped me, I do believe...


Shop Talk

7 months ago

@DD Butikofer I’m glad to have helped. ..."

 

[Snakebitten]

From last March, the procedure for checking the PB trans fluid level .............. https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/thr...ing-cold-start-on-powerboost.7088/post-180138

Thanks!!!
I have not seen that continuous run diagnostic mode. That's perfect

 

[Erikp16]

Update: I am still waiting for the parts to arrive. Also, today is cold. Of course the noise is still there. But I noticed something. The noise is still there then I started to shift to R or D. The moment that I shifted from P, the noise disappears. I wonder if the noise is not related to ICE. Rather it is part of the EV.

 

[GGGILLIM]

Just received my 2022 Powerboost back from the Ford dealer. They said the vehicle needed a software update. My truck sounded just like yours but only after the cold weather arrived.
Reference on work order to Service Bulletin (TSB) # 22-2483. They performed a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) reprogramming.
Will see tomorrow morning after a cold overnight whether it worked or not.

And for comparative purposes, here’s how it sounded every time I started it in the same spot previously…

 

[Snakebitten]

Here ya go



Another bonus to owning the Mongoose OBD adapter. I had already installed this PCM update before the TSB was announced. No need to even darken the doorway of my service department.

 

[DMuiser]

Just received my 2022 Powerboost back from the Ford dealer. They said the vehicle needed a software update. My truck sounded just like yours but only after the cold weather arrived.
Reference on work order to Service Bulletin (TSB) # 22-2483. They performed a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) reprogramming.
Will see tomorrow morning after a cold overnight whether it worked or not.

interesting to hear what happens. I don't understand how computer update can stop a noise but vehicles these days are way over my head.

 

[Snakebitten]

interesting to hear what happens. I don't understand how computer update can stop a noise but vehicles these days are way over my head.

I'll give an example.... completely hypothetical, but not a stretch.

The Powerboost has a unique component attached to a section of the exhaust pipe that captures the heat generated by the exhaust and uses it to heat up the engine coolant quicker than it would traditionally.
The reason for the unique component is to allow the ICE to shut down and behave like the Hybrid that it is, but without leaving the passengers with no way to warm the cabin on a cold morning.

Now let's say that Ford has discovered that the plastic valves that control the coolant flow through the exhaust heat exchanger make an alarming noise opening and closing when they are below freezing temps, but at around 40F the tolerances in the sealing surfaces of those valves return to quiet operation, thus no unhappy customer concerns.

Ford could update the software to change when they open the 2 plastic valves, introducing a delay that allows the engine to warm the cold coolant a few degrees, as well as the exhaust to have a few extra seconds to get the plastic portion of the heat exchanger warmed up. Then open the valves. Walla, the alarming sound is negated, or diminished, and not a single wrench was touched. Purely a software update.

I had my suspicions that the noise being discussed was transmission related and the TSB seems to verify that fact. And it obviously is temperature related as well. I don't know enough about all the parameters involved the transmission control module portion of the pcm, but the 10r80 MHT is very sophisticated. Note they do not claim to be able to get rid of the noise, but instead make some adjustment to some parameter(s) to diminish the cold fluid induced cavitation.

 

[DMuiser]

I'll give an example.... completely hypothetical, but not a stretch.

The Powerboost has a unique component attached to a section of the exhaust pipe that captures the heat generated by the exhaust and uses it to heat up the engine coolant quicker than it would traditionally.
The reason for the unique component is to allow the ICE to shut down and behave like the Hybrid that it is, but without leaving the passengers with no way to warm the cabin on a cold morning.

Now let's say that Ford has discovered that the plastic valves that control the coolant flow through the exhaust heat exchanger make an alarming noise opening and closing when they are below freezing temps, but at around 40F the tolerances in the sealing surfaces of those valves return to quiet operation, thus no unhappy customer concerns.

Ford could update the software to change when they open the 2 plastic valves, introducing a delay that allows the engine to warm the cold coolant a few degrees, as well as the exhaust to have a few extra seconds to get the plastic portion of the heat exchanger warmed up. Then open the valves. Walla, the alarming sound is negated, or diminished, and not a single wrench was touched. Purely a software update.

I had my suspicions that the noise being discussed was transmission related and the TSB seems to verify that fact. And it obviously is temperature related as well. I don't know enough about all the parameters involved the transmission control module portion of the pcm, but the 10r80 MHT is very sophisticated. Note they do not claim to be able to get rid of the noise, but instead make some adjustment to some parameter(s) to diminish the cold fluid induced cavitation.

Great example that makes sense

 

[1985ns]

Here ya go



Another bonus to owning the Mongoose OBD adapter. I had already installed this PCM update before the TSB was announced. No need to even darken the doorway of my service department.

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!! Some sort of an answer. I'll have this done and report back to advise if it helps.

Sponsored