Factory battery ongoing issues

[Jersey Jim]

Did you wake it up (have key in pocket)? Waking it up starts eating juice. Curious if your measurements include disturbing it w/ keyfob on your person or the hood is up and key inside. You will get varying results w/ the key on you. The kids get a kick out of the welcome lighting. "whys it do that?" - "It's my dog - it's happy to see me" Tell it it's a good boy, hit the lock button in my pocket and the lights flash "see he understands me"

No, I used my boat-winch receptacle under the rear bumper (4-ga., 175 amp Anderson). My key fob doesn't have that sort of capability on this 2.7L ICE.

And yes, I'm careful not to Wake it up or it immediately goes into a -15 amp draw before starting.

I used to enjoy using the Bluetooth voltmeter/logger sitting on top of the battery. It truly drew only 1 mA (advertised & measured) unless being querried, then few more. Unfortunately I have if sitting on top of a deep-cycle battery for an automatic door on one of the chicken coops. I should prob get another, so inexpensive.

Sponsored

 

[Jersey Jim]

........... So I see the parallel here with the engine off at stop lights and so on... Only now with the computer controlled engines they can monitor things and kick on the engine if the battery discharges too much...

Oh, I disabled that auto stop/start 15 months ago. That draw is with engine ON! At stops & in Fast Regen mode (above 78% SOC when Target at 80), alternator drops voltage to low 12's, well below battery voltage. This causes a brief "pulling down" of battery voltage to run the vehicle until the 2 voltages match. With some additional vehicle loads, it prevents this by dropping back to "Slow Regen" charge mode. Sometimes 30-40 amps! I would Never let the alternator fall below the the stored battery voltage. Even if only with 1/2 amp, or matching voltages at least.

Tonight I set my Target SOC to 99%, disabling the regen charging modes.

 

[Gros Ventre]

That's odd... An alternator is capable of maintaining voltage even at idle... That description makes me wonder if the generator is in fact a DC machine instead of an alternator (an AC Machine - with rectifiers). Since my PowerBoost has two starters: a classic gear drive into the flywheel and a "Belt" starter... I've wondered just what kind of machine the Belt drive starter is. A classic DC machine can be either a motor or a generator depending on the field excitation... and having a computer to power the excitation would make it really easy to flip-flop back & forth between starter and generator. Wow...

 

[Snakebitten]

Well since the 2024 Powerboost dropped the BISG altogether, I suspect our BISG was always just a BIS.

Which explains why with 1500+ PIDs, I never found evidence that the BISG was "generating", or a backup to the DC/DC converter.

It doesn't mean I didn't miss it, but Ford apparently doesn't think they need one for that purpose.

 

[scott011422]

Well since the 2024 Powerboost dropped the BISG altogether, I suspect our BISG was always just a BIS.

Which explains why with 1500+ PIDs, I never found evidence that the BISG was "generating", or a backup to the DC/DC converter.

It doesn't mean I didn't miss it, but Ford apparently doesn't think they need one for that purpose.

The 2024's dont have the BISG at all? Like not installed on the engine? Could be a dated picture, But Fords Website for the 2024 Powerboost still shows the BISG?

 

[HammaMan]

The 2024's dont have the BISG at all? Like not installed on the engine? Could be a dated picture, But Fords Website for the 2024 Powerboost still shows the BISG?

It's gone, though earlier units still have the dual-belt pulley attached, they're using the traction motor to start it. This was possible all along, they just didn't have the software dialed in to be able to open the TC clutch and start the ICE w/out it being felt. You don't want a jolt/shudder every time the ICE fires. They also didn't want the noise of the flywheel starter with its grind despite being made for ICE only start/stop feature. I have a 22 with the BISG and I don't notice the ICE fire at all while moving. Software is crucial. Not sure if this places additional burden on the TC lockup clutch. There's all sorts of ways to do it like releasing the gear clutches as well to blend it back in.

Under load like increasing acceleration the ICE coming in when power is called for IS noticeable as you're calling for more power and there's no fast way to seamlessly blend in that much more power with the driver calling for more acceleration, quicker. The traction motor does things like regen during shifts to help spin down the ICE for gear speed matching. Surprised it took them this long, but the PB didn't exactly launch issue free so it took some time before they could put efforts into deleting the BISG. Given the 23's SSN issue they had to rectify, surprised they were able to get it done for 24, though they did store all of them for a few months, which is appears to be for a few issues.

Given how the truck rocks when in park and firing off (having already been running), the traction motor may already be starting it. It's such a fast event I haven't seen it over OBD, but I'm guessing if I logged w/ forscan at its 10ms sampling rate I could see it. Just have to sample the right PIDs to see t.

 

[scott011422]

And they removed it why? Was this part of the effort to drop the powerboost price ?

Also, Was there ever a consensus on when each starting method was used?

 

[Davexxxx]

It's gone, though earlier units still have the dual-belt pulley attached, they're using the traction motor to start it. This was possible all along, they just didn't have the software dialed in to be able to open the TC clutch and start the ICE w/out it being felt. You don't want a jolt/shudder every time the ICE fires. They also didn't want the noise of the flywheel starter with its grind despite being made for ICE only start/stop feature. I have a 22 with the BISG and I don't notice the ICE fire at all while moving. Software is crucial. Not sure if this places additional burden on the TC lockup clutch. There's all sorts of ways to do it like releasing the gear clutches as well to blend it back in.

Under load like increasing acceleration the ICE coming in when power is called for IS noticeable as you're calling for more power and there's no fast way to seamlessly blend in that much more power with the driver calling for more acceleration, quicker. The traction motor does things like regen during shifts to help spin down the ICE for gear speed matching. Surprised it took them this long, but the PB didn't exactly launch issue free so it took some time before they could put efforts into deleting the BISG. Given the 23's SSN issue they had to rectify, surprised they were able to get it done for 24, though they did store all of them for a few months, which is appears to be for a few issues.

Given how the truck rocks when in park and firing off (having already been running), the traction motor may already be starting it. It's such a fast event I haven't seen it over OBD, but I'm guessing if I logged w/ forscan at its 10ms sampling rate I could see it. Just have to sample the right PIDs to see t.

I've never had a vehicle that shuts off and starts at stop lights before, so I don't have context but I'm pretty amazed at how seamlessly my PB's ICE engine starts and stops, whether under way, or at a stop light.

If felt at all, like when pulling away from a stop, I would consider it minor but often enough, I don't notice, without either hearing it, or seeing the tach move.

 

[HammaMan]

I've never had a vehicle that shuts off and starts at stop lights before, so I don't have context but I'm pretty amazed at how seamlessly my PB's ICE engine starts and stops, whether under way, or at a stop light.

If felt at all, like when pulling away from a stop, I would consider it minor but often enough, I don't notice, without either hearing it, or seeing the tach move.

If you're parked after everything is warmed up, see if you notice the truck rock. You do get used to it so a 3rd party will notice it more. I watch the EV coach so I know when it's going to blend in and am still amazed that I can watch it and not feel it.

 

[Handle]

Let’s say in the future a PB owners BISG craps out. Do you think through programming the BISG could be removed & deleted and modules updated to ‘24?

 

[HammaMan]

Let’s say in the future a PB owners BISG craps out. Do you think through programming the BISG could be removed & deleted and modules updated to ‘24?

Curious if the logic exists to forscan it out of the equation. I can't see any reason to have discrete logic in the PCMs for the same motors, especially with ford trying to unify the software across years. On paper at least one could delete the BISG. For all we know we've already stopped using it and are just lugging around dead weight and parasitic motor drag.

Ford won't say anything either way unless a TSB shows up for replacing them -- might just be "take it off, run BISG DELETE program in FDRS".

 

[Jersey Jim]

That's odd... An alternator is capable of maintaining voltage even at idle... That description makes me wonder if the generator is in fact a DC machine instead of an alternator (an AC Machine - with rectifiers)............................

Oh yes, It's very capable, but it's programmed to lower it's output voltage when in the last charge mode (Fast Regen), and stopped, or idling, or foot off pedal & coasting below 15 mph.

 

[Jersey Jim]

Ok, I've finally got this charging system working the way I want/need it to. And with the new and bigger H7 battery, it's like night and day.

I bumped up the Target SOC to 105%, so like when I was at 80%, Conventional charge mode (dumb mode) exited for the regen modes 3% under target setpoint. So now I don't have to wear out my blower fan or headlights to keep system from going into Fast regen, and drawing from the battery when stopping or idling. Fills battery to 102% then switches out of Conventional mode where it gets an unwaivering 13.8 volts, regardless rpm's, charging algorithms or combinations of conditions. Proved it out already tonight......

The 5 Forscan phone app pics are of the engine idling, and some with bare minimum vehicle loads (around 23 amps). in past would need to maintain at least 45 amp loads. Target SOC is set to 105%. (Can enter values up to 200%)........

It doesn't show 102% entered the battery, but based on time and amps that were charging, it's predictable like clockwork. For every 0.7 Ah entering the battery increases SOC 1% (Truck still thinks there's a 70Ah H6 in there)

Not to be confused with the 0.7 kW lifetime total charge accumulated so far. Just a coincidence today.

 

[SilverPigeon]

@Jersey Jim, thanks heaps for your research ?. A question please: what Target SOC% would you recommend, in my case on a craptacular factory H6, to stay out of Fast Regen mode? I'm currently set to 90%?

 

[HammaMan]

@Jersey Jim, thanks heaps for your research ?. A question please: what Target SOC% would you recommend, in my case on a craptacular factory H6, to stay out of Fast Regen mode? I'm currently set to 90%?

Did you ever try and make gains on obtaining an aussie TCU to get your fordpass working?
If you have FDRS and the truck's software is up to date, it should already have the aggressive charging logic updated trucks are seeing.

Sponsored