Powerboost reliability.

[Snakebitten]

Lol
You gonna have to show me something other than..... Well, YOU saying so. ?

Sponsored

 

[Big Dog Daddy]

It's mounted similar to traditional components on an ICE motor that involves a belt that includes the crankshaft pully. Except in this case it has a dedicated belt with an independent tensioner assembly.

It can also start the truck with ICE off, but for whatever reason it isn't used for what Ford calls a "cold start"

Since so much of the Powerboost is "electrified", you don't see the typical Ecoboost/Coyote peripherals driven by a serpentine belt.

HVAC compressor, for example is electric. And of course no alternator as well.

Wow, this just leaves me with more questions. So, when running on pure electric. Apparently the ICE is de-coupled from the transmission thus the need for the BISG. Why don't they just re engage the coupling while rolling to restart the ice? Then use the regular starter when running parked or stopped in traffic, similar to the auto start stop technology already incorporated in the ice engines. The BISG seems almost redundant. Or maybe I'm just over simplifying the technology ?

 

[Snakebitten]

Like you, I assumed with the "clutch" that disconnects (uncouple) the crankshaft from the transmission, they could just spin that ICE back up with ease.

But obviously they chose to use a belt instead.

 

[HammaMan]

Wow, this just leaves me with more questions. So, when running on pure electric. Apparently the ICE is de-coupled from the transmission thus the need for the BISG. Why don't they just re engage the coupling while rolling to restart the ice? Then use the regular starter when running parked or stopped in traffic, similar to the auto start stop technology already incorporated in the ice engines. The BISG seems almost redundant. Or maybe I'm just over simplifying the technology ?

Given how much smoother the rolling start is, I'm inclined to somewhat believe there's a combination of belt starting / clutch engagement. When being started and not being called upon for heavy throttle, the ICE coming back alive / online is quite smooth. One reason to not just straight up clutch engage would be due to a tug on the driveline in manner like starting a manual at speed via clutch engagement. That's hard to make smooth and could put unnecessary wear on the clutch.

Still would like to see the assembly in pictures taken apart. Curious to see how the clutch engages the flywheel, and how the electric motor / torque converter assembly looks.

As for whether the BISG would generate 12V rather than just consume it, again I would first want to know why it would even be necessary?

When pressing the throttle, there's a soft 'click' from that area and the voltage will change. My guess would be since AC is already HV powered that bringing in the generator would be to alleviate usage of the HV system for acceleration purposes. This is hinted at a little bit in that the motor ratings vary from ~33-35kW, but the generation capabilities fluctuate from 39-40kW. Given it's a DC motor / generator and not an alternator, and its parasitic load is already present, it might just be a more efficient means for generating 12v than going from the HV motor, to its 3 phase inverter, into the DCDC stepdown. Maybe later this year I'll have time to put a current transformer on it and watch its current flow. Even though the DCDC is claiming some generation, I'm not quite sure I believe what it's reporting.

 

[amschind]

I think that what we're seeing is why parallel hybrids are a deeply limited transitional state. All that complexity does buy you a few extra percent efficiency at highway speed, but you can gain it back with hub motors and you pay for it with a snake's honeymoon of wiring and a variety of semi-redundant systems. I liken it to Windows Vista: people HATED that OS, but loved it as soon as it was called Windows 7. As much as I dislike MS, it wasn't their fault, but the change between 32 and 64 bit.....nobody knew which one to code for. 32 was compatible and tried/true, but 64 had certain advantages.....like >4 GB of addressable memory. Eventually, 64 won out, but the transition was rocky and full of ugly and confusing kludges. Steam is still a 32 bit program. The Powerboost is the Windows Vista of trucks: it has a foot on both worlds, and it takes the heat for coming along at a time when it couldn't really commit to the future or the past.

All of that to say, I want a vehicle where rotational motion comes from an electric motor with at most one fixed gear ratio per motor and which is electronically controlled and corresponds to a single, high system voltage with maybe a small backup locked away somewhere on a small 5-12V battery so your presets don't all vanish if the battery dies. Maybe you even have one drive motor and all of the accessories geared to that (i.e. oil pump, water pump, AC/heat pump, ultracharger?). EPS is great, and man I hope we get pure electric brakes soon. Finally, if the engine only drives a generator, then the generator and starter are the one direct connection to the crankshaft.

Finally, with all of that in place, I want an engine that functions as a modular unit which is easy to drop out of the vehicle to repair or replace. If all of the connections are wires and hoses, that's doable.

 

[Gros Ventre]

There is no complexity to setting a dc machine up to either motor or generate. You simply set the excitation a bit higher and it generates. There is no real reason that Ford wouldn't set it up to generate if desired. It's just too simple to do. In my observation Ford would be dumb not to set it up as such given all of the control capability inherent in this vehicle.

 

[Snakebitten]

I have no reason to doubt that it could be used in generator mode.

I just don't see any evidence that it is.
And plenty of evidence that it isn't necessary.

 

[Gros Ventre]

I have no reason to doubt that it could be used in generator mode.

I just don't see any evidence that it is.
And plenty of evidence that it isn't necessary.

Now you're talking in terms of how Ford set up the control circuits and software and whether they set it up as a primary or secondary power source.

 

[Sfg57]

Well, I'm glad I didn't read this thread before buying my second PB. My wife drives a 2021 Lariat PB, has over 32,000 miles and has only been to the dealer for routine maintenance and the wiper recall. During the hurricane last year, I DID power a good portion of my house for over 24 hours with the PB using long extension cords. I used less than an eighth of a tank of gas. So this year I had an electrician install a 30A plug and circuit breaker interlock so I can power directly to the breaker box.

I liked driving her truck so much that I traded my 2022 Aviator black label for a 2023 F-150 Platinum PB. I absolutely love it!

Sorry to hear that there are some out there having these issues. I would also use this forum to vent if I had consistent problems. I believe Ford sells over 1 million F-150's every year. Many with PB, there are bound to be issues with some. Anyway, for those of us that are happy with the PB, cheers.

 

[Gros Ventre]

One weakness of the Escape Hybrid design was that the traction battery was key to engine run. It started the engine and via the DC-DC converter it supplied the 12VDC power in the vehicle. Actually works fine and my 2006 Escape is running well and reliably after these 17 some years on the original traction battery, but should the traction battery fail, it is a no-go. I think Ford designers chose to set up the F150 electrical system such that even if the traction battery failed, the engine could be run and the truck driven. Thus the engine starts off the 12VDC battery and the belt starter was given double duty as a 12VDC source. Why the belt starter at all? I think the idea that the starter motor via the bendix gear was viewed as a weak point for frequent gear engagements given the on off nature of the hybrid. So they looked around for a simpler method. Thus the generator was selected because it was already there as a generator and it was given the double duty feature of being a belt starter for the frequent stop-starts of a hybrid. Is the BISG in a generator mode secondary to the DC-DC converter? It appears so, but in my view it is there for a reason: You can run and drive the truck traction battery or no.

 

[Snakebitten]

Now you're talking in terms of how Ford set up the control circuits and software and whether they set it up as a primary or secondary power source.

I guess I am. That's basically what I have been in pursuit of discovering for more than a couple of years now.

 

[Snakebitten]

One weakness of the Escape Hybrid design was that the traction battery was key to engine run. It started the engine and via the DC-DC converter it supplied the 12VDC power in the vehicle. Actually works fine and my 2006 Escape is running well and reliably after these 17 some years on the original traction battery, but should the traction battery fail, it is a no-go. I think Ford designers chose to set up the F150 electrical system such that even if the traction battery failed, the engine could be run and the truck driven. Thus the engine starts off the 12VDC battery and the belt starter was given double duty as a 12VDC source. Why the belt starter at all? I think the idea that the starter motor via the bendix gear was viewed as a weak point for frequent gear engagements given the on off nature of the hybrid. So they looked around for a simpler method. Thus the generator was selected because it was already there as a generator and it was given the double duty feature of being a belt starter for the frequent stop-starts of a hybrid. Is the BISG in a generator mode secondary to the DC-DC converter? It appears so, but in my view it is there for a reason: You can run and drive the truck traction battery or no.

I was under the impression that the Powerboost does NOT operate without the HV battery and the traction motor "checking good".

So if that BISG is in fact intended to be anything more than a Belt Driven Starter, or as you describe, a backup 12V generator, it seems it will never get the opportunity.

Your description of the Escape actually sounds familiar to the Powerboost to me.

 

[Gros Ventre]

I was under the impression that the Powerboost does NOT operate without the HV battery and the traction motor "checking good".

So if that BISG is in fact intended to be anything more than a Belt Driven Starter, or as you describe, a backup 12V generator, it seems it will never get the opportunity.

Your description of the Escape actually sounds familiar to the Powerboost to me.

Recall that Ford has advertised the F150 PB as a contractors worksite truck... So to my way of thinking the ability of the truck to run with a failed traction battery would be a useful design feature. In the Escape Hybrid: No traction battery, no start... In the F150 that's not the case. So the next step is: can the truck run with or without the traction battery? My take is it will, and that's why they set up the BISG to do double duty. Electrically that is simple to do and I'd bet software-wise it's pretty simple also.

 

[Snakebitten]

I am surprised to hear the Powerboost will run with faulty traction motor. (or HV battery issue)

I see posts all over the place where these trucks get disabled at the slightest DTC or out of range parameter regarding the HV side of the truck.

I'm fairly convinced the No Start and Stop Safely now issues are often nothing more than an HV DTC that theoretically shouldn't disable the ICE if the Powerboost is designed to function without the traction motor and/or HV battery.

I can see where physically the Powerboost SHOULD be able to operate on ICE with a faulty traction motor or HV battery, but it doesn't look like Ford lets it.

 

[Atlee]

I think that what we're seeing is why parallel hybrids are a deeply limited transitional state. All that complexity does buy you a few extra percent efficiency at highway speed, but you can gain it back with hub motors and you pay for it with a snake's honeymoon of wiring and a variety of semi-redundant systems. I liken it to Windows Vista: people HATED that OS, but loved it as soon as it was called Windows 7. As much as I dislike MS, it wasn't their fault, but the change between 32 and 64 bit.....nobody knew which one to code for. 32 was compatible and tried/true, but 64 had certain advantages.....like >4 GB of addressable memory. Eventually, 64 won out, but the transition was rocky and full of ugly and confusing kludges. Steam is still a 32 bit program. The Powerboost is the Windows Vista of trucks: it has a foot on both worlds, and it takes the heat for coming along at a time when it couldn't really commit to the future or the past.

All of that to say, I want a vehicle where rotational motion comes from an electric motor with at most one fixed gear ratio per motor and which is electronically controlled and corresponds to a single, high system voltage with maybe a small backup locked away somewhere on a small 5-12V battery so your presets don't all vanish if the battery dies. Maybe you even have one drive motor and all of the accessories geared to that (i.e. oil pump, water pump, AC/heat pump, ultracharger?). EPS is great, and man I hope we get pure electric brakes soon. Finally, if the engine only drives a generator, then the generator and starter are the one direct connection to the crankshaft.

Finally, with all of that in place, I want an engine that functions as a modular unit which is easy to drop out of the vehicle to repair or replace. If all of the connections are wires and hoses, that's doable.

I always pictured hybrids built sort of like diesel electric locomotives. Electric motors to drive the wheels and an engine of some type to generate the electricity to drive the motors. I would think a small 4 banger would be able to generate enough electricity to power the motors.

Sponsored