Charging rates

[Gros Ventre]

Don't agree as to the substandard alternator. The issue is a battery's recharge rate is exponential. In the first x minutes you get half recharge, then in the next x minutes you get 1/4, then in the next x minutes you get 1/8 recharge... and so on. That's why a bunch of short trips can slowly drag down a battery. Short trips with traffic extending the run time don't hurt, it's the short trips that just don't quite get the battery up to full. But note that a once a week trip for a weekend warrior jaunt likely resets the battery up to full.

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[Snakebitten]

So what I am reading here is that Ford has designed the charging system to require long trips for whatever reason. Is this because Ford uses a substandard alternator?

The Powerboost doesn't actually have an alternator. At least not a belt driven one.

Instead, it has a DC/DC converter to convert the ~285V high voltage battery current down to 12-14V low voltage current.

 

[Snakebitten]

Are these voltage drops engine off drops? Or BMS reduced charging events?

Edit: never mind. I didn't snap that was a week graph instead of a single day.

Would love to see each day graph

 

[SumGuy]

Don't agree as to the substandard alternator. The issue is a battery's recharge rate is exponential. In the first x minutes you get half recharge, then in the next x minutes you get 1/4, then in the next x minutes you get 1/8 recharge... and so on. That's why a bunch of short trips can slowly drag down a battery. Short trips with traffic extending the run time don't hurt, it's the short trips that just don't quite get the battery up to full. But note that a once a week trip for a weekend warrior jaunt likely resets the battery up to full.

My point is my wife’s car doesn’t require that and has had zero battery issues. Meanwhile we have new(er) trucks and seem to all deal with these issues.
Ford shouldn’t have engineered a truck to require longer travel times. I postulate that this was a Value Engineering decision that saved money somewhere per truck but decreased the ownership experience.

given ford propensity to VE features out of this truck each year, I would assume this is true.

I work with a very large publicly traded manufacturer, and their entire focus is cost. Never once has quality or customer experience been considered. They have some theoretical minimum that people will “still buy at”, and shoot for that price point so the middle management can hit their incentive targets, which are often close to their salary.

 

[Spiffy]

Are these voltage drops engine off drops? Or BMS reduced charging events?

Edit: never mind. I didn't snap that was a week graph instead of a single day.

Would love to see each day graph

I can get you that

 

[Spiffy]

My point is my wife’s car doesn’t require that and has had zero battery issues. Meanwhile we have new(er) trucks and seem to all deal with these issues.
Ford shouldn’t have engineered a truck to require longer travel times. I postulate that this was a Value Engineering decision that saved money somewhere per truck but decreased the ownership experience.

given ford propensity to VE features out of this truck each year, I would assume this is true.

I work with a very large publicly traded manufacturer, and their entire focus is cost. Never once has quality or customer experience been considered. They have some theoretical minimum that people will “still buy at”, and shoot for that price point so the middle management can hit their incentive targets, which are often close to their salary.

I feel so lucky that I purchased a 2022 hybrid. It looks like newer trucks have fewer "toys". The only thing that chaps my ass is the deletion of ambiance lighting. My 2016 interior ambient lighting is really nice. I can change colors. Door pockets, cup holders. Center console. Otherwise the tech in my 2022 is awesome.

 

[Spiffy]

I can get you that

 

[Spiffy]

The Powerboost doesn't actually have an alternator. At least not a belt driven one.

Instead, it has a DC/DC converter to convert the ~285V high voltage battery current down to 12-14V low voltage current.

It doesn't make sense then if the 285v battery is being used to keep the main battery charged and it doesnt keep it at prime SOC. What difference does the SOC of the hybrid battery after charging the main battery? It can't use that much from the hybrid battery to make sure the main battery voltage is high enough to keep it from going into sleep mode?
Besides it takes meir min to recharge the hybrid once the ICE is running.
I too though it had an alternator.

 

[Snakebitten]

Same voltage drops
Over a 4-5 hour period, the voltage is bleeding down about 50-60%SOC?

Yet a couple of days later the truck was basically undisturbed for 24 hours, and lost a fraction of the SOC

Although it started at a very low SOC and STILL lost more in 24 hours than I have witnessed as the norm.

 

[Snakebitten]

It doesn't make sense then if the 285v battery is being used to keep the main battery charged and it doesnt keep it at prime SOC. What difference does the SOC of the hybrid battery after charging the main battery? It can't use that much from the hybrid battery to make sure the main battery voltage is high enough to keep it from going into sleep mode?
Besides it takes meir min to recharge the hybrid once the ICE is running.
I too though it had an alternator.

No alternator.
And in 2024, Ford even dropped the belt driven starter. So the 3.5 Ecoboost in the Powerboost only has a pulley on the crankshaft to turn a waterpump. Nothing else. 1 belt.

 

[Spiffy]

No alternator.
And in 2024, Ford even dropped the belt driven starter. So the 3.5 Ecoboost in the Powerboost only has a pulley on the crankshaft to turn a waterpump. Nothing else. 1 belt.

Does the 2024 still have the two batteries in parallel? If the 285v battery is starting the truck it should have enough reserve to provide proper power for the trucks systems.

 

[Spiffy]

Same voltage drops
Over a 4-5 hour period, the voltage is bleeding down about 50-60%SOC?

Yet a couple of days later the truck was basically undisturbed for 24 hours, and lost a fraction of the SOC

Although it started at a very low SOC and STILL lost more in 24 hours than I have witnessed as the norm.

My next move is to disconnect the aux battery.
I discussed the aftermarket audio system with the installer. The amps turn on and off when the truck sits. He said the amps are triggered buy the pac audio. The pac is the interface on the can buss that interfaces with the dashboard screen. When there is activity on the can the pac sees this and triggers the amps on.
He has done dozens of installs on hybrids this way and never seen this as a problem.
Anyway he suspect a short in the aux battery. Being that it is in parallel with the main battery. Or the other main batteries that have shown this same thing.
First I'm going to remove the aux battery.
Watch the monitor.
If no change I'm going to pull the trigger from the amps off the buss. Wait and monitor the batteries.
Then pull the new ford 12v out and put in the new Duracell h7.
Gone through 3 batteries so far. The factory h6, the optima h7 " that got dropped by the installer " and now the dealer new h7. All three showed the same effect. All three tested on bench as bad.

 

[Snakebitten]

Ford chooses not to fire up the DC/DC converter while the truck is off. So there's no way to maintain the low voltage battery from the HVB if the Electronic Alternator isn't functioning.

Yes, the 2024 Powerboost still has the underhood AGM and the auxiliary AGM under the passenger back seat.

My 2022 Powerboost parked undisturbed yesterday. It didn't bleed but maybe 2/100th of a resting volt

Credit @HammaMan for the lab work that led to this stability

 

[Gros Ventre]

My point is my wife’s car doesn’t require that and has had zero battery issues. Meanwhile we have new(er) trucks and seem to all deal with these issues.
Ford shouldn’t have engineered a truck to require longer travel times. I postulate that this was a Value Engineering decision that saved money somewhere per truck but decreased the ownership experience.

given ford propensity to VE features out of this truck each year, I would assume this is true.

I work with a very large publicly traded manufacturer, and their entire focus is cost. Never once has quality or customer experience been considered. They have some theoretical minimum that people will “still buy at”, and shoot for that price point so the middle management can hit their incentive targets, which are often close to their salary.

At the end of the day you don't understand exponential reduction in charging rate. Don't blame that on "value engineering," its simply the chemistry of lead acid batteries.

 

[Sig Oris]

My point is my wife’s car doesn’t require that and has had zero battery issues. Meanwhile we have new(er) trucks and seem to all deal with these issues.
Ford shouldn’t have engineered a truck to require longer travel times. I postulate that this was a Value Engineering decision that saved money somewhere per truck but decreased the ownership experience.

given ford propensity to VE features out of this truck each year, I would assume this is true.

I work with a very large publicly traded manufacturer, and their entire focus is cost. Never once has quality or customer experience been considered. They have some theoretical minimum that people will “still buy at”, and shoot for that price point so the middle management can hit their incentive targets, which are often close to their salary.

Cost, Schedule, Quality

you only get to pick two

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