When is "enough" enough?

[MikeYQM]

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[sonofzell]

Well, over one and a half hours on the line with Ford corporate support, and the official answer is pretty much "better luck next time". I'm furious, but not at all surprised.

I also spoke to a friend who is an attorney (although works in copyright claims, so this is more general perspective than actual legal advice) who suggested that, given the language of PA's "lemon law" statutes, it's unlikely I will have any recourse going that route if a legitimate resolution is indeed provided by Ford next month as they claim. Apparently, the litigation process would mandate that the dealer(s) are required to have at least one more attempt to provide a resolution. The fact that, even if it is fixed next month, I will have spent a full year with a product inferior to what was advertised is irrelevant.

It seems at this point I have only two viable options (after dealing with another month of still not having what I paid for):

1. If the SSM50383 fix actually resolves all the issues I've documented, I consider it a lesson learned (and seriously reconsider ever purchasing another Ford vehicle again).
2. If issues persist beyond the application of the "fix", begin legal action immediately for a buyback of the truck.

It's still not entirely clear to me if option 2 would provide a complete refund of the purchase price (vs. current market value), so it remains to be seen if this would even be in my best interest. If I would be forced to eat the value depreciation, I'd end up shelling out a bunch of money anyway in order to get into an equal-or-better vehicle than the one I have. A net loss in my opinion.

Side note regarding a "manufacturer buyback": As it was described to me, Ford will not even consider this without documentation of 5+ visits to an authorized service center for attempted resolutions. Telling them that, even when I DID have it diagnosed, the techs essentially told me there wasn't anything they could do to fix it fell on deaf ears.

Hopefully my truck still has enough remaining luster if/when it's actually working properly for me to eventually move past the infuriating I'm feeling. If not, my Sierra savings fund will be started....

 

[GrandpaD]

In reading (I'm old so I might have missed something) have you made contact with the REGIONAL Service manager? Years ago I had service issue with a Ford. Local dealer was ???? and corp. customer service seemed to just be reading back "pat answers" from some patronizing book of excuses manual. The regional guy stepped in and we got things moving. I googled and saw names in PA but no contact number. Just a thought.

Another thought.... Take your case to social media. Big corps hate public airing of complaints...a few well worded tweets might get something rolling.

 

[sonofzell]

In reading (I'm old so I might have missed something) have you made contact with the REGIONAL Service manager? Years ago I had service issue with a Ford. Local dealer was ???? and corp. customer service seemed to just be reading back "pat answers" from some patronizing book of excuses manual. The regional guy stepped in and we got things moving. I googled and saw names in PA but no contact number. Just a thought.

Another thought.... Take your case to social media. Big corps hate public airing of complaints...a few well worded tweets might get something rolling.

Well, I'm also using my phone, so there's no guaranty on accuracy or legibility ?

I'm honestly not sure exactly what reps/departments I was in contact with. I elevated once and spoke to 5 or 6 reps altogether. The only constant was their refusal to offer any subjective conversation on the matter.

I'm sure to some extent the popularity of these trucks works to my disadvantage. It's the same problem we've all faced when sitting in the sales office... There's no motivation to offer any great incentives when they know that if you don't buy the truck there's two people behind you that will.

Although Ford may have lost me as a future customer, I'm certain nobody in Dearborn is losing any sleep over it.

 

[libby2cm]

Well, over one and a half hours on the line with Ford corporate support, and the official answer is pretty much "better luck next time". I'm furious, but not at all surprised.

I also spoke to a friend who is an attorney (although works in copyright claims, so this is more general perspective than actual legal advice) who suggested that, given the language of PA's "lemon law" statutes, it's unlikely I will have any recourse going that route if a legitimate resolution is indeed provided by Ford next month as they claim. Apparently, the litigation process would mandate that the dealer(s) are required to have at least one more attempt to provide a resolution. The fact that, even if it is fixed next month, I will have spent a full year with a product inferior to what was advertised is irrelevant.

It seems at this point I have only two viable options (after dealing with another month of still not having what I paid for):

1. If the SSM50383 fix actually resolves all the issues I've documented, I consider it a lesson learned (and seriously reconsider ever purchasing another Ford vehicle again).
2. If issues persist beyond the application of the "fix", begin legal action immediately for a buyback of the truck.

It's still not entirely clear to me if option 2 would provide a complete refund of the purchase price (vs. current market value), so it remains to be seen if this would even be in my best interest. If I would be forced to eat the value depreciation, I'd end up shelling out a bunch of money anyway in order to get into an equal-or-better vehicle than the one I have. A net loss in my opinion.

Side note regarding a "manufacturer buyback": As it was described to me, Ford will not even consider this without documentation of 5+ visits to an authorized service center for attempted resolutions. Telling them that, even when I DID have it diagnosed, the techs essentially told me there wasn't anything they could do to fix it fell on deaf ears.

Hopefully my truck still has enough remaining luster if/when it's actually working properly for me to eventually move past the infuriating I'm feeling. If not, my Sierra savings fund will be started....

Ford doesn't care, they got your money. When my shifter snapped off in November, and it took 5 truck rolls to get it towed, they basically just laughed.

You are having an electrical issue, software isn't going to fix it... lol. What a bunch of assclowns. Something happened with trucks built in this period, because my first problem right after delivery last year was with all interior lighting not working. Ended up being a crushed harness in back of dash they had to fix. Few other in forums here had similar problems. I'm guessing that's what is going on with your truck, it's just different wires crushed somewhere. But, good luck getting them to trace that out.

FWIW, dealer has been great... Ford, on the other hand.... is chock full of idiots, liars, cheats after $. "Service is job number 49474437."

Keep your atty. on speed dial.

 

[Pedaldude]

Man, that is not right regardless of vehicle cost !

IDK, it seems to be perhaps justified if you paid $100 for some hooptie that you also need a vise-grip to roll the windows down on, a rubber mallet to tap on the idle air control valve to start and using the odometer mileage because the fuel gauge doesn't work.

But definitely not on something costing around $50,000!

 

[21PlatPB]

Easy solution..... Get some values from Carvana, Carmax and maybe local buyers in your area and broom it. I've done it before and if I stumble across a loaded solid black King Ranch 3.5l Ecoboost, I might the same with mine.

Honestly this is the easiest answer. With all the issues I was having with my truck I found it easier to get a number on it and punt it than going back and forth with the dealership. They used truck market is so hot that you should be in good shape.

This was it for me today: after a service appointment failed to fix the freezing door latch issue, I spent an hour + in -15C idling the truck trying to get the door closed and finally had to strap it in place to drive back to the dealership.
@Ford Motor Company how safe is that?

I can’t believe they are still having door latch issues, unreal.

 

[Caillou]

Okay, I'm trying hard to keep this legitimate question from devolving into a rant session. To that end, here's the most simplistic summary of my ownership experience with my 2021 F150 XLT:

I purchased my truck in February 2021 after a total loss collision in my 2018 XLT. Build date is 12/2020.

Issues with Sync4 system have been present and persistent since the day it left the lot. These include (but are not limited to): no retention of dash cluster settings, random resets of Sync settings/preferences, malfunctioning [native sync] navigation display, and inability to receive system updates (via OTA or USB dealer-installed).

To date, I have had the truck in for service on three separate occasions for these specific issues, and not one of them has been resolved. When picking up my truck from the dealer yesterday I was informed that a fourth visit will be required if/when the service techs receive the promised software fix from Ford. Additionally, I was informed by Ford Sync support just moments ago that my modem is now completely unresponsive. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I have now lost the ability to connect the vehicle to the Fordpass app and thus even more features (that were working without issue prior to having it serviced), including scheduled starts, securalert, remote monitoring, etc. After a lengthy troubleshooting session with Ford support reps I was informed that my only recourse is to... you guessed it - schedule yet another trip to the dealer service department.

I have no intention of starting a complaint session regarding my service experience, but it is a fact that I have spent a total of 26 days without my truck since purchasing it. I've also lost two full days of work in making arrangements for service (and probably the majority of a third day due to the collective "out early" and "in late" arrangements that were necessary to accomodate drop-offs, alternative transportaion, etc). I have also invested a significant amount of time, effort, and energy communicating and troubleshooting with Ford support directly. I honestly don't think that 20 cumulative hours is any exaggeration in that regard.

My point is this: my truck is now one year old, has over 13,000 miles, and has NEVER provided operability of the funtions mentioned above. While I freely admit that none of these issues affect the safety or general operability of the vehicle, they are all advertised features of the product that were promised and paid for. If I were to assume that the promised "fix" will really be released next month, AND that it will be able to be sucessfully installed, AND that it really resolves my issues (a giant assumption given my experience thus far), I will essentially be getting the product that I paid for "new" for the first time, but in "pre-owned" condition. Surely we can all agree that if the truck that actually delivered the features I purchased was a year old with 13k, I would have paid A HELL OF A LOT LESS for it than I paid for this new one.

With this in mind, and considering my complete lack of confidence in the reliability of my Sync system moving forward, I am asking honestly: is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation? I sincerly don't intend to be over-dramatic, but at what point does Ford's failure to deliver a vehicle as advertised become their problem, instead of my constant inconvenience and expense? At what point can Ford no longer justify my purchased vehicle that is explicitly and quantifyably inferior to identical trucks with identical options sold at an identical price that simply happened to have been built after they corrected their own mistake?

Again, I'm really not just venting here. I'm legitimately asking if:

• It would be reasonable/ethical to begin pursuing a vehicle return or other compensation for the failures of the vehicle I purchased
• I have any legal recourse to enforce Ford's accountability for their product not being delivered as advertised
• anyone has had any similar experiences with new vehicle purchases (Ford or otherwise)
• I'm just being a "Karen" and overreacting to what are essentially "minor" issues (although I do contest that my patience and cooperation for the past year earns me some credit in that regard...)

I know "lemon laws" and other buyer protection programs exist for a reason. I suppose I've been very fortunate that thus far, I've never needed to concern myself with them, but I'm also not eager to "learn my lesson" by getting taken advantage of with the purchase of what I consider to be a "premium" vehicle. I'm trying to leverage my empathy for Ford dealing with a number of factors outside of their control with my instinct to avoid having been "conned" into purchasing a vehicle that was NOT as advertised (and waiting too long to take any corrective action).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance, and apologies if any of this reads like the rant I am trying to avoid!

 

[EF150man]

Honestly this is the easiest answer. With all the issues I was having with my truck I found it easier to get a number on it and punt it than going back and forth with the dealership. They used truck market is so hot that you should be in good shape.



I can’t believe they are still having door latch issues, unreal.

I had that issue with my last F150 (2016). Had to have it fixed two different times. Now in a 2021 and can’t believe it is still happening

 

[EF150man]

Well, I'm also using my phone, so there's no guaranty on accuracy or legibility ?

I'm honestly not sure exactly what reps/departments I was in contact with. I elevated once and spoke to 5 or 6 reps altogether. The only constant was their refusal to offer any subjective conversation on the matter.

I'm sure to some extent the popularity of these trucks works to my disadvantage. It's the same problem we've all faced when sitting in the sales office... There's no motivation to offer any great incentives when they know that if you don't buy the truck there's two people behind you that will.

Although Ford may have lost me as a future customer, I'm certain nobody in Dearborn is losing any sleep over it.

Hello my friend. I’ve read all your posts and I totally feel for you. I have had several glitches with my 2021 lariat, fortunately not to the point where I needed to leave it at a dealer for a long period of time. Of course in the old days they would give you a loaner vehicle when they were going to keep your vehicle overnight or for extended periods. Now they just shrug their shoulders and say sorry we don’t have loaners. If it’s any consolation. A good friend of mine has a 2020 GMC diesel fully loaded 2500 and he was without his truck recently for about 10 days while they worked on glitches. He knew the guy in service very well, and he told my friend that he would not recommend anybody buy a GMC right now . That’s quite the statement. This problem may be bridging manufacturers. Anyway, hang in there. I appreciate all the work you’ve done as it will help all of us on this site. God bless.

 

[wayfarer556]

Well, I'm also using my phone, so there's no guaranty on accuracy or legibility ?

I'm honestly not sure exactly what reps/departments I was in contact with. I elevated once and spoke to 5 or 6 reps altogether. The only constant was their refusal to offer any subjective conversation on the matter.

I'm sure to some extent the popularity of these trucks works to my disadvantage. It's the same problem we've all faced when sitting in the sales office... There's no motivation to offer any great incentives when they know that if you don't buy the truck there's two people behind you that will.

Although Ford may have lost me as a future customer, I'm certain nobody in Dearborn is losing any sleep over it.

Not the answer you want, but I would wait it out until the "fix" happens.
Take this month to gather your resources and prepare. Document every single interaction you have had with the dealer prior to this.
I would do the following:

1. Hire a lawyer and ask them (or your Lawyer friend) to draft up a "shot across the bow" type of notice that you are preparing for legal action with the legal letterhead and everything. Send it to the dealership via Certified Post with proof of receipt if they do nothing by March 1. Make sure they know that they need to contact you to negotiate something.

2. If they do not meet whatever minimums your lawyer recommends, then I would direct them to begin the litigation process. This may not be a happy time, but if you are angry enough, you'd be surprised how far that would take you, legally.

3. If they do fix the truck, I'd probably turn right around and sell it. Current truck prices are so crazy that you may end up breaking even. You could do this even through Vroom or Carvanna.

You could also consider blasting the dealership and Ford directly via Twitter. They actually do respond to that. It may not be much better than their useless account here on these forums, but it will reach a wider audience, one that Ford cares more about than older school internet forums.

Good luck. I'm sorry you're going through this.

 

[Darkjeep]

Worst case of a lemon law case is you get some free money. I know someone who had a wrangler with a waterfall feature in it. I'd sue but then remember that the legal system is super stressful and you need a good lawyer. A friend that is a lawyer will make everything go better than a google search one.

 

[sonofzell]

Well, the drama continues.

I just called to check on the availability status of this promised fix and was told that its release was "recently pushed back"... Until July of 2022.

This is beyond absurd. I'm simultaneously talking with a Ford customer support case manager, several local dealers, and some off-the-clock attorneys.

The support rep is abysmal. She constantly promises to "get back to me" the next day, only for me to have to track her down days later. Thus far, the conversation has not moved past her "gathering information". At one point she actually suggested that Ford may be willing to offer some compensation like a free oil change - if they feel I've qualified for it. I was literally waiting for a punchline, but this woman was dead serious.

The dealers also haven't offered anything in terms of consideration. Of course they're willing to offer their "great deals", but absolutely nothing as specific consideration that this is essentially a defective product exchange (not just some random upgrade or purchase). I get that dealers really have little or no control over the faulty truck issues, but it does not appear that I'll be able to "flip" this truck without eating a year's worth of depreciation and shelling out a lot of cash.

As for the legal route, the two main challenges remain:
1. As long as Ford continues to claim that a"fix " is eminent, a lemon law claim will be difficult to win in the near future, if ever.
2. Assuming the unlikely scenario in which I were to recoup the cost of the truck, I'd still be in a situation of having to replace it. With the next-to-nothing inventory and production / delivery delays, I'd be right back to either settling for an older or lesser vehicle or handing over a bunch of cash for a '22 or a higher trim level.

As I see it, this all boils down to Ford having me over a barrel, having my money, and not giving even half a damn about it.

 

[UNIKRN150]

Okay, I'm trying hard to keep this legitimate question from devolving into a rant session. To that end, here's the most simplistic summary of my ownership experience with my 2021 F150 XLT:

I purchased my truck in February 2021 after a total loss collision in my 2018 XLT. Build date is 12/2020.

Issues with Sync4 system have been present and persistent since the day it left the lot. These include (but are not limited to): no retention of dash cluster settings, random resets of Sync settings/preferences, malfunctioning [native sync] navigation display, and inability to receive system updates (via OTA or USB dealer-installed).

To date, I have had the truck in for service on three separate occasions for these specific issues, and not one of them has been resolved. When picking up my truck from the dealer yesterday I was informed that a fourth visit will be required if/when the service techs receive the promised software fix from Ford. Additionally, I was informed by Ford Sync support just moments ago that my modem is now completely unresponsive. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I have now lost the ability to connect the vehicle to the Fordpass app and thus even more features (that were working without issue prior to having it serviced), including scheduled starts, securalert, remote monitoring, etc. After a lengthy troubleshooting session with Ford support reps I was informed that my only recourse is to... you guessed it - schedule yet another trip to the dealer service department.

I have no intention of starting a complaint session regarding my service experience, but it is a fact that I have spent a total of 26 days without my truck since purchasing it. I've also lost two full days of work in making arrangements for service (and probably the majority of a third day due to the collective "out early" and "in late" arrangements that were necessary to accomodate drop-offs, alternative transportaion, etc). I have also invested a significant amount of time, effort, and energy communicating and troubleshooting with Ford support directly. I honestly don't think that 20 cumulative hours is any exaggeration in that regard.

My point is this: my truck is now one year old, has over 13,000 miles, and has NEVER provided operability of the funtions mentioned above. While I freely admit that none of these issues affect the safety or general operability of the vehicle, they are all advertised features of the product that were promised and paid for. If I were to assume that the promised "fix" will really be released next month, AND that it will be able to be sucessfully installed, AND that it really resolves my issues (a giant assumption given my experience thus far), I will essentially be getting the product that I paid for "new" for the first time, but in "pre-owned" condition. Surely we can all agree that if the truck that actually delivered the features I purchased was a year old with 13k, I would have paid A HELL OF A LOT LESS for it than I paid for this new one.

With this in mind, and considering my complete lack of confidence in the reliability of my Sync system moving forward, I am asking honestly: is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation? I sincerly don't intend to be over-dramatic, but at what point does Ford's failure to deliver a vehicle as advertised become their problem, instead of my constant inconvenience and expense? At what point can Ford no longer justify my purchased vehicle that is explicitly and quantifyably inferior to identical trucks with identical options sold at an identical price that simply happened to have been built after they corrected their own mistake?

Again, I'm really not just venting here. I'm legitimately asking if:

• It would be reasonable/ethical to begin pursuing a vehicle return or other compensation for the failures of the vehicle I purchased
• I have any legal recourse to enforce Ford's accountability for their product not being delivered as advertised
• anyone has had any similar experiences with new vehicle purchases (Ford or otherwise)
• I'm just being a "Karen" and overreacting to what are essentially "minor" issues (although I do contest that my patience and cooperation for the past year earns me some credit in that regard...)

I know "lemon laws" and other buyer protection programs exist for a reason. I suppose I've been very fortunate that thus far, I've never needed to concern myself with them, but I'm also not eager to "learn my lesson" by getting taken advantage of with the purchase of what I consider to be a "premium" vehicle. I'm trying to leverage my empathy for Ford dealing with a number of factors outside of their control with my instinct to avoid having been "conned" into purchasing a vehicle that was NOT as advertised (and waiting too long to take any corrective action).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance, and apologies if any of this reads like the rant I am trying to avoid!

First of all... I've been wanting to say for quite some time that I think your aviator is REALLY "creepy". (Which is why I LOVE IT!)

That said... I think it depends on how much you like the truck and how unique it is since you DID order it to YOUR specs.

In less than two weeks it will be ONE YEAR since I ordered MY truck and in that time I've been able to drive it a total of 4 weeks!

Now it's sitting torn apart in the Dealership parking lot waiting parts.

But 4 weeks was enough to make me realize that I have an unusually amazing truck so “I” will be waiting. If I thought I had a hope in hell of finding another one like it anywhere, I’d be deep into legal bills by now.

Good luck to BOTH of us!

 

[UGADawg96]

Sucks dude. I recently had a similar situation with my 2019 Silverado with the dreaded rear window leak. After four attempts to fix and it still leaked, I dumped it at Carmax and licked my financial wounds in early 2021 right before the used market shot up like a rocket. Luckily for us, the truck was a third vehicle and we could be without a truck for some time. Then I bought my first Ford in my life in late 2021. It may be your best option if you have additional vehicles to pursue just dumping it as some others have recommended. At least the used market is better now than it was a year ago for sellers.

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