PowerBoost MPG - WTH??

[amschind]

The shape is a constant across the board. Perhaps the PB gets worse highway mileage than the 3.5EB. It looks like 25highway vs 24highway. Marginal improvement at best and certainly not worth the hybrid system gains.

The PB is a heavier truck with the third most torque in the entire Ford light truck lineup behind the 6.7l PS and the unobtanium Raptor R V8 and the heaviest frame behind the unobtanium HDPP. The issues with the PB powertrain are that it has enormous amounts of torque which even the 7350# GVWR frame cannot utilize, AND it was paired with the stock 10R80. That produces two issues: 1) towing is no better than a stock 3.5 becuse the extra GVWR only goes toward supporting the battery and motor and 2) the instant 70 lb-ft of torque could allow for wider spacing on the gears, but doesn't. The F150 needed a 2.3L I4 EB paired with the 70 lb-ft motor and a 10R80H transmission with wider spacing on the gears such that the highest overdrive gear was at or perhaps below 0.5:1. I think that the 2.3l Ranger PHEV powertrain has 509 lb-ft of torque, which is more than sufficient to propel any load that an F150 chassis can safely pull. On the other end, the 3.5 paired with a 10R140 doesn't need the 3.5 derated to stay within transmission limits, so you could easily get 475 HP and 600 lb-ft of torque from the powerplant in the F150 right now (with the 10R80 swapped for a 10R140), and with the 100 HP motor from the short-lived Aviator hybrid, the 3.5/Aviator hybrid motor/10R140 might be able to push 700 lb-ft.

So most of what you're seeing is the fact that the PB is a prototype, not for the technology, but for the marketplace. The big question was "Will truck buyers overcome their "it's a Prius with a bed and 4WD" prejudice and buy the thing? Part of that strategy was enabling the PB to beat the rest of their truck lineup in a quarter mile, which traded gas mileage for MAN POINTS. The PB gets MPG that ranges from slightly better than its competition to worse, and most PB owners will admit to experiencing both in a pattern that even long experience does little to sort out. However, the PB will yank any trailer that you can fit behind the truck forward like you forgot to hook it up, and it will run a TIG welder or an Airstream or a freaking house until it runs out of gas. I think that one day, when PHEV series hybrids are the norm, PB powertrains will find new life as donors for some sick sleepers. I've said this before, and it's gonna hopefully be 15 years, but some day I want to memorialize the old girl by keeper her spirit alive in a built 1967 silver and black Mustang, and maybe I'll even have the cash to ask Shelby to help out.

I realize that's a very tangential answer to your question, but that's what I've put together over the course of 3.5 years.

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[HammaMan]

The PB's e-motor makes 220ftlbs of torque FWIW and the 3.5 isn't nerfed -- fords numbers are raptor appeasing. There's a log showing it outputting 58hp / 270ftlbs. Whoevers truck made it I'm sure is glad it didn't pop the HV fuse pulling 162 amps. PITA to replace that thing.

When you log the truck, even tuned, it pulls the e-motor power (watching it go into regen during gear changes to help rev match the ICE RPMs, I find amusing for some reason). A stock PB on 93 dynos 470 while torque limiting keeps it at 600. The 10r80 is inadequate for this powertrain.

Need to crowdfund a 'documentary video' of a full GPZ frictions / expanded clutch pack install along with the upgraded valve body spools.

 

[amschind]

The PB's e-motor makes 220ftlbs of torque FWIW and the 3.5 isn't nerfed -- fords numbers are raptor appeasing. There's a log showing it outputting 58hp / 270ftlbs. Whoevers truck made it I'm sure is glad it didn't pop the HV fuse pulling 162 amps. PITA to replace that thing.

When you log the truck, even tuned, it pulls the e-motor power (watching it go into regen during gear changes to help rev match the ICE RPMs, I find amusing for some reason). A stock PB on 93 dynos 470 while torque limiting keeps it at 600. The 10r80 is inadequate for this powertrain.

Need to crowdfund a 'documentary video' of a full GPZ frictions / expanded clutch pack install along with the upgraded valve body spools.

I am not sure that I fully understand: the first part of the post sounds like the 3.5 in the PB isn't nerfed, while the second part seems to argue that it is. My understanding from public literature is that the PB motor makes 47 HP peak/70 lb-ft peak. The take-aways are twofold: 1) the stated electric motor specs and 2) 430 HP peak-47 motor HP=383 peak HP from the ICE, which would be a de-rate vs the usual 3.5. I am sure that my basic arithmetic is off, but the point remains that the power and torque output of both the ICE and electric motor are tightly controlled to avoid transmission life issues. If the electric motor can put out 220 lb-ft (which seems reasonable to me, I have nothing but Ford marketing material otherwise), then it seems like the 3.5 is EVEN MORE nerfed in the PB than I had understood.

 

[EricR]

...

When you log the truck, even tuned, it pulls the e-motor power (watching it go into regen during gear changes to help rev match the ICE RPMs, I find amusing for some reason). A stock PB on 93 dynos 470 while torque limiting keeps it at 600. The 10r80 is inadequate for this powertrain. ​

Need to crowdfund a 'documentary video' of a full GPZ frictions / expanded clutch pack install along with the upgraded valve body spools.

How so?

From the Ford Performance info for the 5.0 supercharger:

In partnership with Whipple Superchargers, the Ford Performance kit produces 700 hp at 6,500 RPM and 590 lb.-ft. of torque at 5,000 RPM.​

​

Trucks with the FP supercharger retain full factory warranty, including coverage for the 10R80.

Is Ford fooling themselves with a transmission never designed for such an application?

Is the 10R80 failing with the tuned PB or SC 5.0?

 

[HammaMan]

How so?

From the Ford Performance info for the 5.0 supercharger:

In partnership with Whipple Superchargers, the Ford Performance kit produces 700 hp at 6,500 RPM and 590 lb.-ft. of torque at 5,000 RPM.​

​

Trucks with the FP supercharger retain full factory warranty, including coverage for the 10R80.

Is Ford fooling themselves with a transmission never designed for such an application?

Is the 10R80 failing with the tuned PB or SC 5.0?

A tuned PB puts out ~740ftlbs of tq around 3500 RPM on 93 octane. The trans is rated for 800nm of torque, aka 590ftlbs. A PB on 93e20 puts out 600ftlbs stock around 3500rpm.

 

[Samson16]

In partnership with Whipple Superchargers, the Ford Performance kit produces 700 hp at 6,500 RPM and 590 lb.-ft. of torque at 5,000 RPM.

That is so cool that my stock PowerBoost produces as much torque as a blown V8 race motor running at 5000rpm!! ?

F’n PB’s are just the best ?

 

[HammaMan]

That is so cool that my stock PowerBoost produces as much torque as a blown V8 race motor running at 5000rpm!! ?

F’n PB’s are just the best ?

Factory piping ensures that by the time your truck reaches 5k RPM its running out of breath. Torque down low breaks things. The 5.0 blower tunes make up for it on the top end. I have a suspicion the PB has 3.73s in 4WD to make the trans life easy as possible. The 2WD trucks came w/ 3.55

 

[PatchManager]

Someone already posted Fuelly data for the F150 versus the Ram 1500, and here is a comparison of 2023 PowerBoosts versus 2023 EcoBoosts versus the 2023 5.0. Note that these number are from owners who track their mileage in Fuelly. There could be a bias between the MPG of Fuelly members versus non-Fuelly members because Fuelly members obviously care about their gas mileage, but I imagine little difference between Fuelly members that own a PowerBoost versus EcoBoost. The difference in average MPG between the PowerBoost and the EcoBoost or 5.0 is not trivial.

2023 F150 EcoBoost

2023 F150 PowerBoost

2023 F150 5.0

 

[HammaMan]

I did something highly uncommon for me, I drove 55mph on a 20 minute trip and got 27 mpg w/ my 34.1" LTs. I was going a little slower but it didn't want to grab 10th, once it grabbed 10th I found efficiency picked up. I was early to a meet up so I was going slow. No net elevation change but some rolling hills turned the ICE on and off as well as required 8th going up the inclines peaking about 6lbs of boost. AC was on, fan 5 of course.

 

[amschind]

One night headed back through Gulf Coast Texas, I was startled by how deserted that area is around Lake Jackson. So I did a similar test, tried to go as low as possible and get 10th. Even in manual, it WOULD NOT do 10th below IIRC 50 MPH. (maybe 48, it has been 2 years). One of the things that I have most wanted from a tune since then was cleaning that shift behavior up, as I think that the truck leaves a lot on the table in terms of performance and MPG.

 

[Snakebitten]

Lake Jackson is Brazoria County.
My youngest is county sheriff deputy.
He's pretty easy though, so if you just explain what you are doing, I imagine you would get a brief sermon and no citation. ?

 

[scott011422]

So, You people that are getting these 25+ mpg runs, where are you seeing your instants at?

Driving constant speed, Level roads, I've never seen the instant go over 25. Bone stock truck. My best MPG EVER is 21. I've only been over 20 mpg twice since I got the truck 4/22. Lifetime average is 17 mpg.

 

[FaaWrenchBndr]

So, You people that are getting these 25+ mpg runs, where are you seeing your instants at?

Driving constant speed, Level roads, I've never seen the instant go over 25. Bone stock truck. My best MPG EVER is 21. I've only been over 20 mpg twice since I got the truck 4/22. Lifetime average is 17 mpg.

I reset my trip 2 after every oil change.
I have gotten 22.4 on the last 5k run
As far as instant, now with not being colder, I am seeing 23-25 on town. Averages when I fill up are right at 22.1.

I was seeing a regular 24-24.6 before it got cold. I had one trip where I was on a two lane road for a 450ish mile trip. I got 25.7 on that trip. That’s the only time I have ever broke 25 on the highway

 

[Jmitchelltfo]

I did something highly uncommon for me, I drove 55mph on a 20 minute trip and got 27 mpg w/ my 34.1" LTs. I was going a little slower but it didn't want to grab 10th, once it grabbed 10th I found efficiency picked up. I was early to a meet up so I was going slow. No net elevation change but some rolling hills turned the ICE on and off as well as required 8th going up the inclines peaking about 6lbs of boost. AC was on, fan 5 of course.

I just went from 34.4" to a 33.2" with a weight per tire of 62 and 52 pounds respectively. I noticed that my transmission is much quicker to shift into 9th and 10th gear. I still manually downshift on the highway for hills to keep it out of boost for the best MPG's.

MPG's on the highway since swapping tires have jumped considerably, from 16-17 on a good day, back up to 20-21. Around town is about the same but slightly better. I've only hand calculated one full tank of fuel since installing my new Nittos .......but I ended up with 21.2 MPG, which made me pretty happy with my decision to drop back down on my tire size.

 

[Davexxxx]

So, You people that are getting these 25+ mpg runs, where are you seeing your instants at?

Driving constant speed, Level roads, I've never seen the instant go over 25. Bone stock truck. My best MPG EVER is 21. I've only been over 20 mpg twice since I got the truck 4/22. Lifetime average is 17 mpg.

My most frequent trip, is 16ish rt miles of mixed back road / hwy, / city. Back road and hwy are moderately hilly. Its flat in town.

Tier 1, 87 octane. Most commonly in the 22-24 range but it has topped 30 a few times. In cold weather, often seeing 17-19. 20F, seems to be an important temp.

I suspect people who live in the flat, never really get to see the full benefits of the hybrid system. Its there as a helper, true but in rolling hills, with moderate (sub 45) speeds, I frequently get elec. only, with simultaneous charging.

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