How to improve PB cooling???

[Polo08816]

I'd probably consider something like this after the warranty period. The 180F thermostat is much more discreet.

This makes very little sense. If you're needing more cooling, addressing the issue after you've let the heat run its course and the warranty is up doesn't jive. That's like switching to a quality oil after running cheap stuff halfway through ownership.

Are you able to quantify the amount of aggregate damage that will manifest itself after the warranty period on each individual component from not having aftermarket cooling modifications?

If your powertrain fails within your warranty period and it's stock, it's on Ford. If you've made powertrain modifications with something as obvious as a non Ford radiator, what are the chances they'll blame it on your aftermarket radiator if it's a heat related issue? Sure, you could try to argue that your modifications mitigated the issue but good luck with that.

You could also make the argument that if you're towing so much to overheat the powertrain of an F150, you probably should consider moving up to a HD pickup instead.

It doesn't make sense to me to spend that much money to prevent a failure under warranty.

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[HammaMan]

Are you able to quantify the amount of aggregate damage that will manifest itself after the warranty period on each individual component from not having aftermarket cooling modifications?

If your powertrain fails within your warranty period and it's stock, it's on Ford. If you've made powertrain modifications with something as obvious as a non Ford radiator, what are the chances they'll blame it on your aftermarket radiator if it's a heat related issue? Sure, you could try to argue that your modifications mitigated the issue but good luck with that.

You could also make the argument that if you're towing so much to overheat the powertrain of an F150, you probably should consider moving up to a HD pickup instead.

It doesn't make sense to me to spend that much money to prevent a failure under warranty.

Quite a few rhetoricals in there. Ford could theoretically do any number of things including saying the truck got wuflu. It really comes down to how much of a pushover someone is in the end. A subpoena for telemetry would quickly end such fuss. Which for the record, the t.stat shows up in. Something not being 'visible' isn't the same thing as it not being seen. Their little slide for the 24 release regarding the use of PPoB is great standing to peak into just how extensive their data collection is. Knowing how to fight is better than tiptoeing around to avoid one.

Every single data point the computer sees is logged. Seatbelt, door opening, shifter status, location, window commands, etc...

 

[Polo08816]

Quite a few rhetoricals in there. Ford could theoretically do any number of things including saying the truck got wuflu. It really comes down to how much of a pushover someone is in the end. A subpoena for telemetry would quickly end such fuss. Which for the record, the t.stat shows up in. Something not being 'visible' isn't the same thing as it not being seen. Their little slide for the 24 release regarding the use of PPoB is great standing to peak into just how extensive their data collection is. Knowing how to fight is better than tiptoeing around to avoid one.

Every single data point the computer sees is logged. Seatbelt, door opening, shifter status, location, window commands, etc...

Agreed. But the factory having a mix up and putting in the wrong Ford thermostat is far more plausible than making the argument that Ford put in a non-Ford / aftermarket radiator. How long is data retention? Are they analyzing log files for data more than a year before the failure happened?

"Fighting" in this case is simply a matter of time and cost. That's why it's far easier just to avoid one. Or just buy a 10 year 175k mile Ford extended warranty and keep the truck stock. When the powertrain decides to turn itself into kibbles and bits, just bring it in and say, "Fix this. It's stock."

 

[HammaMan]

"Fighting" in this case is simply a matter of time and cost. That's why it's far easier just to avoid one. Or just buy a 10 year 175k mile Ford extended warranty and keep the truck stock. When the powertrain decides to turn itself into kibbles and bits, just bring it in and say, "Fix this. It's stock."

Honestly I've never had to take an issue beyond a letter of intent to litigate outlining grievances and remedies that will be sought. I used to type them out, now these LLMs will generate them in my 'tone' using past letters and current issues.

As for retention of data, it's worth too much and storage too cheap to not retain it. The FBI has been siphoning up encrypted emails/data for over 2 decades because they'll be able to crack it in the future. The post office has massive data centers keeping records of every piece of mail they've ever handled (take advantage of it here). The NSA shares significant portions of tier 1 network provider IXs taking as much of everything they can process.

When will ford become competent with their data? I'm not sure. But when a court order requests it they have to cough it up. Below is a very brief summary of data GM had to hand over, they had seatbelt, as well as door openings in it. Haven't seen the raw data, but the data and what it showed were argued quite a bit in the trial. His and the victim's phone telemetry was a component as well.

 

[Snakebitten]

If my own personal use of my Powerboost resulted in it operating beyond the temperatures that I was comfortable with, I'd not hesitate to take measures to enhance it's cooling capabilities. That shouldn't be any risk to a warranty.
It might include a different thermostat and or aftermarket radiator.

But I've been towing with 3.5 Ecoboost F150's for about ~9 years and I haven't had to do anything except drop a few gears or slow down for a few miles.

However I am not concerned with momentary engine coolant temps in the 230's, nor transmission temps momentarily in the 240's.

I also don't mind swapping transmission fluid after a trip that may have included getting the transmission up to those temps.

 

[HammaMan]

Indeed. The F150's radiator is marginal because they want you to buy a 250 that's not required for what can be done. Toyota doesn't have another more $ truck to sell you so they went ahead and put an adequate cooling package for all conditions, not 'most' conditions. The weight / balance / power of the 3.5, particularly the powerboost is sufficient for its ratings.

Funny thing, the police interceptor XL has the raptor's dual mode transmission thermal management system with front mounted air/oil and frame mounted oil/water.

 

[dafish]

Trailering today at ambient temp of 75F, at 65mph, in 7th gear on a slight hill/grade about 1/2 mile long, my trans got to 221F and engine was at 219. I was maybe 4 lbs of boost, when I looked at the gauge.

I can’t imagine what is going to happen when I am pulling 6-7% grades in the mountains for 5 miles. Something just doesn’t seem right. I am not even close to stressing this truck.

If that's all it did, and held that, it's not a problem. As I've said, the thermostat doesn't fully open until 215f. You ran 219F at wherever the sensor is? Within reason. It doesn't suggest a lot of headroom in the system, and I suppose that's your point, but note that may not be true.

If it was easy to increase water flow or airflow well yes do those things. Is the belly tightly closed up? More and more engine bays are, and if the air isn't getting out you might be limiting airflow via hot air exit restriction. Otherwise yes, turning more RPM should increase water flow and decrease boost.

Dropping the antifreeze ratio to 37-40% should be a no-brainer, don't know why you're not doing that. Same with adding a surfactant. And if we can get the heat out of the engine better....

Engine oil carries a lot of engine heat, if you can't easily upgrade the radiator then upgrade the oil cooler. In fact, if the engine isn't able to dump enough heat into the water then cooling the oil better may be the path with the best return in terms of both cost and simplicity.

Can I assume you've done the right things on the TT? Tire pressures up, WD hitch set up correctly (truck and trailer both level), etc? Otherwise you're making a bad aero situation worse.

Luck to you!
-d

 

[SRMD]

If that's all it did, and held that, it's not a problem. As I've said, the thermostat doesn't fully open until 215f. You ran 219F at wherever the sensor is? Within reason. It doesn't suggest a lot of headroom in the system, and I suppose that's your point, but note that may not be true.

If it was easy to increase water flow or airflow well yes do those things. Is the belly tightly closed up? More and more engine bays are, and if the air isn't getting out you might be limiting airflow via hot air exit restriction. Otherwise yes, turning more RPM should increase water flow and decrease boost.

Dropping the antifreeze ratio to 37-40% should be a no-brainer, don't know why you're not doing that. Same with adding a surfactant. And if we can get the heat out of the engine better....

Engine oil carries a lot of engine heat, if you can't easily upgrade the radiator then upgrade the oil cooler. In fact, if the engine isn't able to dump enough heat into the water then cooling the oil better may be the path with the best return in terms of both cost and simplicity.

Can I assume you've done the right things on the TT? Tire pressures up, WD hitch set up correctly (truck and trailer both level), etc? Otherwise you're making a bad aero situation worse.

Luck to you!
-d

I can assure that the TT is setup properly, exactly how equalizer specified in the directions. TT air pressure is 65 psi for all 4 tires and monitored wirelessly.

Regarding the antifreeze/coolant to water ratio, I need to check the freeze point. I have a house in the mountains and it does get well below 0 in the winter.

I appreciate the input. I am going to drive the fully loaded TT to my house in the mountains to see the temp profile.

 

[dafish]

You want to know freeze point and burst point. They are quite different. You also do not dare play such game wo a good refractometer. A bulb hydrometer just isn't accurate enough.

Here:

"Freeze" point is when it start to slush up. It cannot hurt anything until BP.

40% EG is -13F slush. -60 burst. I would not want to be starting something slushed up though. No idea what i might do to an impeller blade or... I run my performance toys (kept in a garage at night) at 35% and they haven't ever seen a -3f start.

This is getting pretty aggressive, but water is a way better coolant than Ethylene Glycol is, so as much as we can get in helps. Heck, drop down to a properly measured 45% if you'd feel safer.

37% (as I recall) is commonly sold in some warmer parts of the world. Au. as an example.

Luck to you,
-d

 

[HammaMan]

With a temp probe, a container to hold the substance, dry ice and a bottle of 90% rubbing alcohol you can verify what occurs when. Dry ice alcohol bath is a very easy way to get temps down to -130f for testing freezing points.

 

[SRMD]

Indeed. The F150's radiator is marginal because they want you to buy a 250 that's not required for what can be done. Toyota doesn't have another more $ truck to sell you so they went ahead and put an adequate cooling package for all conditions, not 'most' conditions. The weight / balance / power of the 3.5, particularly the powerboost is sufficient for its ratings.

Funny thing, the police interceptor XL has the raptor's dual mode transmission thermal management system with front mounted air/oil and frame mounted oil/water.

sounds like we should be able to upgrade to the police interceptor version. Should be bolt on if offered from ford. I need to research that. I did not know that was available.

You want to know freeze point and burst point. They are quite different. You also do not dare play such game wo a good refractometer. A bulb hydrometer just isn't accurate enough.

Here:

"Freeze" point is when it start to slush up. It cannot hurt anything until BP.

40% EG is -13F slush. -60 burst. I would not want to be starting something slushed up though. No idea what i might do to an impeller blade or... I run my performance toys (kept in a garage at night) at 35% and they haven't ever seen a -3f start.

This is getting pretty aggressive, but water is a way better coolant than Ethylene Glycol is, so as much as we can get in helps. Heck, drop down to a properly measured 45% if you'd feel safer.

37% (as I recall) is commonly sold in some warmer parts of the world. Au. as an example.

Luck to you,
-d

Very helpful information. I have the optional engine block heater, so the ultra low temp should not be an issue. I typically plug-in below 20F when at my mountain house.

 

[amschind]

I have seen folks talk about lower temperature thermostats in vehicles (generally mustangs) where they point out that the coolant temperature is not changed by a lower temperature thermostat because the engine sets it with timing and fuel delivery, with the mechanical thermostat being relegated to a sort of failsafe in a modern engine. Enough of them had videos with the engine coolant temp at 195 before and after the thermostat switch that they must be on to something.

That said, I agree on the radiator. I'll call Mishimoto and ask if it's PB compatible, though they may not know.

 

[HammaMan]

The raptor and police XL with aux coolers have them mounted where the PB's aux HV loop cooler is present. The radiator seems to be the best option. I've spent many hours looking into this. Even w/ the raptor's lines (raptor and XL police same thing) to the heat exchanger on the K area of the frame (where coolant and trans fluid meet for heating), the oil still needs something that you'd have to come up with for mounting of an aux oil rad below the HV loop. There's no bolt on solution in that regards though I imagine it won't be too difficult to come up. Thus as such for the time / money / effort / parts / and tinkering, the silver bullet here, despite being $800, is still the logical solution of the larger rad.

As for compatibility, yes it will fit. The PB's rad is the same as the others. Even the the HV loop is sitting where the raptor / XL-P is, mounting in the same holes. The trans plate heat exchanger isn't bad, it's just limited by the fact the coolant is hot because a 3.5L TT getting 4mpg is creating 1.3mil BTUs.

 

[Samson16]

Well get to designing fellas! If I’m not towing 10,000lbs up Pike’s Peak at 80mph by next Tuesday somebody’s losing their job around here!

 

[HammaMan]

I came across an EB owner who swears that an air/oil oil cooler does wonders while capping off the water/oil unit (located at the filter). Given that turbo oil drains into the pan as well does the piston oil cooling squirters, I'd be really curious to see a pan temp gauge.

However from a cooling capacity, water is king.

Given the twin turbos and the fact all heat ends up in the coolant, the rad should have been twice its size from the factory. Poor choices on the bean counter's part. I'm sure the engineers would be more than happy to give it a proper rad. But ford's EV losses need recouped somehow.

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