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HammaMan

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This is the 30ah in particular that can have the battery box cut up to make it fit. 30ah "mini" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C3CZQCKP

I didn't put in the modified box shown below (bought extra batt box off ebay), it's just connected up with 8ga wires currently. The box needs certain parts cut up to fit / close up like it should. The box is actually 3 different parts including the lid. Same box for either the PB or the 2kW ICE trucks.


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Snakebitten

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That's pretty amazing that you aren't dropping a quick ~.5V with approach features dragging on the 12V battery(s)

So the little LFP is what's holding the LV head up before the DC/DC converter is available to help out?
 

dafish

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Hammaman:

I think you've already mentioned the temperature rules of LiON and LFP. Not something you'd overlook, yet.. So what's your thinking?

I run LFP in my bike, but I don't expect it to deliver power or charge below 32f.
 

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dafish

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For the PowerBoost, the forum this discussion is under, the factory appears to use an H7/Group 94. As i read because some electronics intrude into the space otherwise occupied by an H8.

Group H7/Group 94: 12.437L x 6 .875 x 7.5H
Group 31: 13L x 6.8125W x 9.4375H
H8/Group 49: 13.937 x 6.875 x 7.5

If there was available height, might a Group 31 fit? Won't stop the alleged undercharge issue, but would likely defer the event a few extra days of starage. Anybody measured yet?
 
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HammaMan

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That's pretty amazing that you aren't dropping a quick ~.5V with approach features dragging on the 12V battery(s)

So the little LFP is what's holding the LV head up before the DC/DC converter is available to help out?
The LV is currently sitting at 3.17v right now, I've woken it up a few more times just to see what'd happen. For these tests the 7ah is still sitting installed as it should be, I simply tapped the LFP into its - screw and utilized the threaded post on the positive to attach it (there's a little threaded post under the red cover that I have a nut for). I haven't turned the key on, but if I turned on accessory, the DC/DC would supply 12.75v or so. Most of the LFP's power is in the 3.2v-3.4v range (temp dependent) so when it drops down to 12.6 or so at these temps, that's when the AGM starts to back it up if higher amperage is pulled. It's a much different story with my larger ones, I've got a 110ah unit I'm still working on that will let the truck pull 50 amps from while staying above 13v (this is the long-term battery for the truck though it's physically 10% larger than I need it to be to fit nicely), and the 280ah isn't phased by anything.

It turns out due to the v droop of the smaller batt, it's really the best size because it charges almost capacitor like, but will droop enough under load that it's not handling higher amperages. It'll eat as much amperage as possible up until around 14.2v as it's almost full then. The benefit is that it retains that higher resting voltage which happens to be a perfect float voltage for the AGM so it will slowly trickle it to 100% SOC and the small loads of accessing the truck it handles entirely. Once it goes back to 'sleep', if any power was pulled from the AGM, it floats it right back up to full. What this translates to is ~25ah worth of reserve power before the under-hood AGM begins to drop below 100% SOC.

Hammaman:

I think you've already mentioned the temperature rules of LiON and LFP. Not something you'd overlook, yet.. So what's your thinking?

I run LFP in my bike, but I don't expect it to deliver power or charge below 32f.
Yes, the LFP 'rules' are to prevent degradation. They can be discharged at 0f and charged around 25f to maintain their full lifetime which is 3-6,000 80% depth of discharge cycles before there's only 80% of rated capacity left. Then the cycle repeats of another 3-6000 cycles before 30ah>24ah becomes ~18ah. Even if my few below freezing recharges wipes out 90% of its life span, this thing should still have a decade of use here. These are LFP, not Li-ion. Big difference. When LFP dies it goes quietly into its goodnight. When li-ion dies it can turn into a ball of flames. Huge huge difference between these chemistries. I wouldn't use neither traditional NMC Li-ion or lithium polymer chemistries as they're fire hazards. LFP is a very safe chemistry.

In the meantime the factory battery is still in the truck 22 months after purchase and is trouble free, and even if I have to replace this thing in 4 years, all of the benefits it provides was worth its 90$.
 

fordtruckman2003

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For the PowerBoost, the forum this discussion is under, the factory appears to use an H7/Group 94. As i read because some electronics intrude into the space otherwise occupied by an H8.

Group H7/Group 94: 12.437L x 6 .875 x 7.5H
Group 31: 13L x 6.8125W x 9.4375H
H8/Group 94: 13.937 x 6.875 x 7.5

If there was available height, might a Group 31 fit? Won't stop the alleged undercharge issue, but would likely defer the event a few extra days of starage. Anybody measured yet?
I don't know how you would measure that. I suppose putting something 3+ inches tall on top of battery and seeing if hood closes.

I do think battery cables will be an issue. I know they can stretch side to side to fit a wider battery as I went from H6 to H8, no PB here. I don't think there is enough play to go to vertical to a taller battery post.

I'm not familiar with non-standard batteries like that in stores. It might last longer or it might not. Battery lifespan can be random. Easy to swap out a standard size battery. I wouldn't want to be waiting for a special order battery so I can drive.
 

dafish

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Just to note I caught and corrected a group number typo in my post above...
 

dafish

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Yes, the LFP 'rules' are to prevent degradation. They can be discharged at 0f and charged around 25f to maintain their full lifetime which is 3-6,000 80% depth of discharge cycles before there's only 80% of rated capacity left. Then the cycle repeats of another 3-6000 cycles before 30ah>24ah becomes ~18ah. Even if my few below freezing recharges wipes out 90% of its life span, this thing should still have a decade of use here. These are LFP, not Li-ion. Big difference. When LFP dies it goes quietly into its goodnight. When li-ion dies it can turn into a ball of flames. Huge huge difference between these chemistries. I wouldn't use neither traditional NMC Li-ion or lithium polymer chemistries as they're fire hazards. LFP is a very safe chemistry.

In the meantime the factory battery is still in the truck 22 months after purchase and is trouble free, and even if I have to replace this thing in 4 years, all of the benefits it provides was worth its 90$.
I'm betting I missed something along the way, or maybe another thread. It seems you're running this in parallel with the small rear seat factory battery. Yes? Just adding in some capacity?

I'm also betting you're in a warmer climate than I am. It's be -12f quite a few times this week, I'd have been reluctant to apply a charge to an LFP. I think they make self warming batteries now, no idea if they make an LFP variant or one small enough.

I'll watch and learn. Thanks for sharing w/us!
 

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HammaMan

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I'm also betting you're in a warmer climate than I am. It's be -12f quite a few times this week, I'd have been reluctant to apply a charge to an LFP. I think they make self warming batteries now, no idea if they make an LFP variant or one small enough.

I'll watch and learn. Thanks for sharing w/us!
I've had this batt installed w/ out the aux batt in place in its modified battery box during warmer months. I'd removed it to do testing on the batt itself putting the factory batt back in (as in it was installed with lid and no way to know it was there w/out opening the aux batt box and seeing it). Because of low temps here recently, I decided to put it back in temporarily for testing with temps being in the teens (positive). The aux batt being present has virtually no bearing here due to its tiny size. I've read several papers on LFP charge / discharge at below freezing temps in ranges I see here, albeit rarely. Temps in the teens are maybe a few days a year, single digit temps can be counted on 1 hand/yr.

There really aren't any good batteries around this size, or batteries with a good BMS, to make this practical in much colder temps. I have the logic needed for such batteries, but was unable to find a company that makes BMSs that could do what I wanted. I've since found a way to achieve results but it's a very low priority for me. Working on acquiring more property right now. However technology is rapidly approaching a point where I could hash out a system over a weekend or so but due to my nature, if it takes longer I could spend time on it that's better suited elsewhere. So it's on my giant project board of endless projects that I keep an eye on so that when I decide to do it, I'll do it.

I've got the logic mapped, I just need to do some thermal / insulation testing to get heat retention curves. After all, the right logic and insulation can keep a battery within operational temperatures for days as well as providing a recovery logic if a vehicle sits for an extended period of time at extremely low temperatures. I'm not really going to go into further details in case I decide to market a product in the future. There's no current product on the market displaying even half of the 'common sense' logic such a product would contain. Honestly I'd rather spend the time adding a drive motor to the propeller shaft and a ~10kWh battery to add another 150hp/300ftlbs of torque to the truck while giving it true regen braking, but the powerbeast is a whole other topic entirely.

LFP temp degradation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6126518/

LFP / NMC
https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/16/6/2786
 
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Samson16

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For the PowerBoost, the forum this discussion is under, the factory appears to use an H7/Group 94. As i read because some electronics intrude into the space otherwise occupied by an H8.

Group H7/Group 94: 12.437L x 6 .875 x 7.5H
Group 31: 13L x 6.8125W x 9.4375H
H8/Group 49: 13.937 x 6.875 x 7.5

If there was available height, might a Group 31 fit? Won't stop the alleged undercharge issue, but would likely defer the event a few extra days of starage. Anybody measured yet?
I have only read posts regarding the replacement of H7 sized AGM batteries for the PB, and of those posts, I have not heard a single low voltage complaint after replacing with a quality non-OEM product.

Anecdotal evidence yes, but it continues to mount.
 

HammaMan

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I have only read posts regarding the replacement of H7 sized AGM batteries for the PB, and of those posts, I have not heard a single low voltage complaint after replacing with a quality non-OEM product.
Ford F-150 Best replacement battery 1705562354036
 

Snakebitten

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Hammaman, I have NO issue with you hammering out a solution for the low voltage shortcomings of our Powerboost AGM/BMS, and then marketing it. ?

I'll be honored to be the first customer, in fact.
Of course that's very different than you being the beta tester. I'm too feint of heart for such duty.
That's what the $dollars represent, afterall.......paying for the R&D!
 

dafish

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Oh no. I recognize this feeling. The dreaded "what oil should I use" debate, this time over batteries. Sadly, I need the answer.

sigh...
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