87 octane vs 93 octane - ECOBOOST

[Chili]

Ummmmm Ford reps are on here. So... ???

I personally think that's why it you say you have an issue they ask for your vin and never follow up. Vin + sceeen name = too much info.

But I love a good conspiracy theory

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[fordtruckman2003]

Ummmmm Ford reps are on here. So... ???

What's your point?

If tuned the dealer will know when you go in for warranty work. No reason to be scared some random Ford social media rep knows or cares about it.

 

[Csu87]

Ethanol damages rubber fuel lines and carburetor parts which is why it is not used on boat engines. The cars and trucks that can safely use ethanol have had modifications done to them to limit any damage.

For my part corn should be used to feed people of which we have many in the USA that go to bed hungry each night. I wouid never buy E85 fuel for that reason alone.

any newer car is made with components that hold up to ethanol. You can run e85 on these trucks no issue IF you can deliver enough fuel for it and youre tuned for it. The limiting factor for any modern car to run e85 is fuel pumps/injectors and tuning.

 

[Calson]

40% of the corn production in the USA goes into making ethanol for cars instead of food for people. It is great for the profits of companies like Archer Daniels Midlands and for the politicians they buy.

If only ethanol was available at the pumps I would have either electric or diesel powered vehicles.

 

[HammaMan]

40% of the corn production in the USA goes into making ethanol for cars instead of food for people. It is great for the profits of companies like Archer Daniels Midlands and for the politicians they buy.

If only ethanol was available at the pumps I would have either electric or diesel powered vehicles.

We'll be looking back at using food as a fuel just as we do with putting radium into face cream.

At the same time If I can use it to get more power from a tune I'm more than happy to since it's available and cheap.

 

[Davexxxx]

"We'll be looking back at using food as a fuel just as we do with putting radium into face cream."

I understand the sentiment, honestly but and I'll get right to the point, there was a long period of corn being too cheap. Unprofitable to grow. It needed the new market.

You may not know, or like that answer but I lived it. It is what happened. Price got so bad, for so long, my farming partner put in a corn stove. It was cheaper to burn for heat, than propane.

Corn is an expensive crop to grow and risky. A real feast or famine type thing. It takes literal tons of nitrogen and if its too hot at just the wrong time, or too dry, or too wet, or too much wind, or not enough wind, it can make combining whats left, not economic. Its expensive on that end too. With low price per unit but high handling costs.

So, just plain econ 101, if you don't like corn being used for fuel, how would you like corn producers to grow one of the grasses used for ethanol instead? Because that was what was going to happen.

 

[Chili]

"We'll be looking back at using food as a fuel just as we do with putting radium into face cream."

I understand the sentiment, honestly but and I'll get right to the point, there was a long period of corn being too cheap. Unprofitable to grow. It needed the new market.

You may not know, or like that answer but I lived it. It is what happened. Price got so bad, for so long, my farming partner put in a corn stove. It was cheaper to burn for heat, than propane.

Corn is an expensive crop to grow and risky. A real feast or famine type thing. It takes literal tons of nitrogen and if its too hot at just the wrong time, or too dry, or too wet, or too much wind, or not enough wind, it can make combining whats left, not economic. Its expensive on that end too. With low price per unit but high handling costs.

So, just plain econ 101, if you don't like corn being used for fuel, how would you like corn producers to grow one of the grasses used for ethanol instead? Because that was what was going to happen.

My in-laws grow corn and soybeans and they have mentioned basically what you said as well from my memory. Seems e85 is seeing a dive but at the same time there is a push for e15. Have you seen declines or increases?

 

[Davexxxx]

My in-laws grow corn and soybeans and they have mentioned basically what you said as well from my memory. Seems e85 is seeing a dive but at the same time there is a push for e15. Have you seen declines or increases?

I've been out of the business for several yrs. now and really don't pay much attention to it anymore.

Locally, 10% ethanol is the norm and I don't have any trouble with it, with one exception. I do use fuel stabilizers in engines that only get periodic use. Tractors, boat, chain saw etc. Haven't had a carb issue since.

 

[HammaMan]

"We'll be looking back at using food as a fuel just as we do with putting radium into face cream."

I understand the sentiment, honestly but and I'll get right to the point, there was a long period of corn being too cheap. Unprofitable to grow. It needed the new market.
....

I'm not fond of govt moving the hand. Ethanol is an octane boosting crutch, one that delivers less energetic fuel to the consumer while also making fuel hygroscopic. 87 octane should remain pure gas and higher octane fuels could be made by pump-blending e85 into it for higher octane levels that cost less money. Customers are getting shafted by the pricing and by fuel that can't be stored any appreciable amount of time without the alcohol pulling in atmospheric moisture into the fuel.

If the base fuel stock was 87 octane pure, a 10% ethanol blend would yield a 90 octane fuel. Instead they're making a cheaper base fuel and using ethanol to bring up the octane while the price doesn't reflect the lessor product.

 

[CoolCoyote]

What a wild ride this thread has been.

 

[SALEEN961]

In case anyone is interested, the factory calibration on my 2021 3.5EB starts out with an inferred octane rating of 89.2 at 0.0 OAR after a KAM reset. When the knock sensors are very happy and the OAR adjusts to -1.0 the inferred octane rating is 98.

I'm not sure what the low end of the spectrum for inferred octane is when the OAR reads 1.0 and I hope to never find out; but if anyone wants to take one for the team and put a bunch of water in their gas tank, I'm sure someone would be interested to hear about your results.

 

[WBravo]

What a wild ride this thread has been.

I've just read through it for the first time today (as I'm cheap af and use 87) since I wanted to know if perhaps my new ride deserved higher octane.

I find it all amusing as in the aviation world, using a higher octane, as if we were offered more than one, is less about best performance so much as performing in such a way that prevents a piston from liberating itself from the engine and ruining a nice roof. For those who don't know or don't care and feel like reading anyway, our little general aviation planes run 100 low lead for the increased resistance to premature detonation. However, our 1965 Skylane is placarded for 80 octane "mo-gas" these little engines are hysterically inefficient. Although, they do spend considerably more time at high power settings than any car does.

And there's your daily dose of useless information. You're welcome.

 

[Angrybeaver]

No, the difference is that $360/yr pees out the exhaust pipe. There is no statement by Ford that hgher octane increases power output. What likely happened is that Ford so designed the engine, when in its perfect state right off the assembly line floor, that with 87 octane it is right on the edge. Read that link I put up, you'll find that as an engine ages it coud go over the edge on 87 octane, but if you up the numbers it'll still run smoothly. That's all there is. The thermodynamics is clear: octane higher than designed adds nothing to power. The power comes from the area under the curve. The ony way you make that area under the curve larger is by upping the compression ratio and therefore raising the "Brake mean effective pressure" in the engine. Octane just doesn't do this.

Compression, advancing the spark, etc...

There is more to it than what you claim. The whole more power thing has been proven with these motors.

That is also why ford recommends 91+ octane when towing heavy loads. You can get 30-50 more torque from the higher octane fuel, which means your vehicle will downshift less when towing thus reducing transmission temps.

I have run both with and without a trailer. You can noticeably tell the difference in both cases, but it is extremely obvious when towing. I just wish the 30% more I pay per gallon for premium gave me 30% more mpg, but nope... it is something about 10-15% when towing... though less time filling up is always welcome. I have also noticed I get about 2-3 more lbs of boost when running 93... refer to my first points as to why that is.

 

[WhiteLightningnshitshadow]

I've just read through it for the first time today (as I'm cheap af and use 87) since I wanted to know if perhaps my new ride deserved higher octane.

I find it all amusing as in the aviation world, using a higher octane, as if we were offered more than one, is less about best performance so much as performing in such a way that prevents a piston from liberating itself from the engine and ruining a nice roof. For those who don't know or don't care and feel like reading anyway, our little general aviation planes run 100 low lead for the increased resistance to premature detonation. However, our 1965 Skylane is placarded for 80 octane "mo-gas" these little engines are hysterically inefficient. Although, they do spend considerably more time at high power settings than any car does.

And there's your daily dose of useless information. You're welcome.

My thinking on small plane engines was why on earth would you need 100 Oct if you're running about 10k feet up all the time? Putting in variable compression made too much sense. Most of these old piston plane engines have to be severely underpowered at 10k ft.

 

[HammaMan]

My thinking on small plane engines was why on earth would you need 100 Oct if you're running about 10k feet up all the time? Putting in variable compression made too much sense. Most of these old piston plane engines have to be severely underpowered at 10k ft.

Extra octane helps when the heat is high. It's aviation afterall, the safety bar is higher. That said however, modern automotive ICE engines are put into aircraft without issue. ICE aircraft engines haven't really changed much whereas vehicle engines are on a whole other level. There's a VW diesel that they got certified. I believe a few have 'officially' crossed over (cert'd for aviation else it's an experimental aircraft w/ different rules, like the one below)

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