RAM REV XR ... You can't make this stuff up!

[HammaMan]

This, save the last paragraph, sums up my feelings on this subject. At this point, IMO, people are buying these vehicles just to make themselves feel better. The $$ doesn't add up to a win for the consumer and the tech isn't there yet, or maybe in the rest of our lifetimes, for this to make much of an impact on CO2 emissions.

My EV burns coal baby. Requires no maintenance and it costs $3 for 200 miles of range.

You can get used teslas around $20k. Anyone who says EVs don't make sense for a daily is lying or ignorant. Where they fail is distance. 40 minutes per 3hrs of driving to charge isn't cool. Towing? Forget it.

We have a megapack in our system. It's a small one, we were basically just dipping our toes into the water to see how well it works. I think it works ok. These things take up a pretty good bit of room for their capacity and they're presumably not cheap at all, especially if they're not subsidized by some government program or other. In my opinion, and that of some other power engineers I've talked to, needing to use energy storage to overcome transmission and generation constraints is really a bandaid in lieu of actually fixing the problem and making the system strong enough from the start for the load it needs to support.

There's several ways for a megapack to be used.
- Transient loads I personally believe to be a pretty advantageous aspect especially during generator cut in/out. It's instantaneously able to add or pull energy from the grid allowing other plants to adjust power levels as required. -- a capability unique to battery storage
- It can provide peaking plant capabilities especially for operators of jet turbines as those aren't cheap. With the modular designs you can add additional batteries without the need for additional inverters to extend its operating time. They've recently switched to using LFP cells which are far safer and have much higher lifespans. LFP while requiring more space, are cheaper to source.
- Though I'm not fond of either wind or solar for grid generation, they can be used as a bandaid due to the shortcomings inherent to those systems.

As a whole, the power industry is cutting it gradually closer and closer so far as maxing out equipment, and reliability is suffering. We have FAR FAR more frequent energy alerts occurring now vs just 4 or 5 years ago, situations in which we're notified that power reserves are lower than optimal. Renewable energy is a huge part of that, perhaps the biggest. The reason for this is that the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow, so if you want to replace say 1000 MW of baseload generation (a nuke plant, coal, gas fired, etc.) with renewable, you must actually build a number of times the amount you're replacing because you can only count on a relatively small portion of it to be available at any given time. So, that 1000 MW coal plant you're retiring? You're gonna need to build several 1000's of MW of solar or wind to replace it. I forget the exact figures on that, but it's way over 2 times the amount you're replacing that must be built. Likewise, we're cutting it closer and closer with transmission capacity as well. FERC order 881 is a direct consequence of that. That's ambient adjusted transmission line ratings, and the purpose is to get every little bit of capacity out of existing transmission lines by taking into account ambient temperatures and wind for purposes of calculating cooling of the lines. This sounds good, right? But, stand back and look at the big picture, it's another way to cut safety margins thinner on the existing hardware instead of upgrading the hardware to maintain the same safety margins while supporting future loads. The direction the industry is headed, spearheaded partly by government mandates, is pretty clear.

I'm opposed to the idea that wind and solar are magical sources of energy as a national doctrine. In some areas like the SW where sunshine is nearly endless, yeah, solar makes sense. Installing it somewhere that doesn't get but 1/3 or less of sun than the deserts do is retarded (and it happens far more than anyone would believe). There isn't any circumstance where solar or wind should be used as "replacement" for base load nuke/coal/gas plants, or a grid solar installation be built where a hailstorm could knock it out because it will happen...

I'd like to see some type of operating agreement come out of the incoming administration basically guarantying something like 20-30 years of non-infringeable operation of coal/gas plants, shielded from any further state/fed intervention requirements without a massive penalty from whatever entity is trying to curtail the plants operation -- like no less than $1bil worth of compensation. Make the penalty such that trying to shut the place down is impossible. That also goes for the gas fields and mines that feed such plants so they can't do the typical govt nonsense of "okay well we'll just shutdown all of the mines".

This chart shows the last ~23 years of electricity generation by couple countries -- China has more ~6x'd their power generation (now double that of us) while the US is stagnant. Germany is in big trouble, but hey, at least they shut down their nuke plants

okay, derailed enough

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[Suns_PSD]

My EV burns coal baby. Requires no maintenance and it costs $3 for 200 miles of range.

You can get used teslas around $20k. Anyone who says EVs don't make sense for a daily is lying or ignorant. Where they fail is distance. 40 minutes per 3hrs of driving to charge isn't cool. Towing? Forget it.

Used EV's are turning out to be a real bargain here lately and make a compelling argument for picking up a nice one.

I'm pretty convinced that, in a new vehicle, nothing offers more overall value/ lower lifetime operating costs, than a V8 middle of the road spec crew cab pickup truck.

They are reasonable $ to buy, cheap to operate, can do literally anything, and the resale value is just tremendous, even well past 200K miles.

I work with a guy that traded in his Raptor the other day for a new Nissan Sentra. A used one with 60K miles was $20k, the new one was $23K, so he bought new. He gets 44 mpg. Compare that math to any Tesla that loses $30K of value in 18 months.

 

[Larrymoe]

Used EV's are turning out to be a real bargain here lately and make a compelling argument for picking up a nice one.

I'm pretty convinced that, in a new vehicle, nothing offers more overall value/ lower lifetime operating costs, than a V8 middle of the road spec crew cab pickup truck.

They are reasonable $ to buy, cheap to operate, can do literally anything, and the resale value is just tremendous, even well past 200K miles.

I work with a guy that traded in his Raptor the other day for a new Nissan Sentra. A used one with 60K miles was $20k, the new one was $23K, so he bought new. He gets 44 mpg. Compare that math to any Tesla that loses $30K of value in 18 months.

My coworker has a Tesla and he had a flat tire. Idk if he did this, or Tesla made him, but they had to tow his car 2 hours to St Louis to fix it.

 

[HammaMan]

Used EV's are turning out to be a real bargain here lately and make a compelling argument for picking up a nice one.

I'm pretty convinced that, in a new vehicle, nothing offers more overall value/ lower lifetime operating costs, than a V8 middle of the road spec crew cab pickup truck.

They are reasonable $ to buy, cheap to operate, can do literally anything, and the resale value is just tremendous, even well past 200K miles.

I work with a guy that traded in his Raptor the other day for a new Nissan Sentra. A used one with 60K miles was $20k, the new one was $23K, so he bought new. He gets 44 mpg. Compare that math to any Tesla that loses $30K of value in 18 months.

Last year when tesla did their price cut, the model S lost substantial value. Kyle paid $140k (plus tax) on his model S, 2 years later tesla is offering him $46k for it. Only lost $100k in value.
A sub $25k EV qualifies for the $4k point of sale tax credit -- really hard to beat that as a mileage beater. Going from a raptor to a sentra? oof

 

[amschind]

CATL says their solid state battery is going into mainstream production in 2026. LFP is a great safe cheap tech, but the solid state stuff is a whole other realm with capacity that doubles Wh/Kg coming in at 500Wh/Kg. LFP is below 200Wh/Kg, though doped LMFP does approach 200. Sodium is cheap and has its advantages so it could displace LFP for stationary purposes.

Given the ass dragging at least on public info regarding purpose-built power plants for this use case, we may just end up in a scenario where battery tech advances to the realm of 5-600 mile range becoming ubiquitous, and gasoline cars just don't really do much for the next decade or two. That 500Wh/Kg realm however makes short-haul E-aircraft a reality and that opens up competition for the cells. Curious to see the cost aspect as well as just how easy can existing lines convert over to such tech.

If you look at what's published for anode free sodium batteries, which VW is trying to put into cars, they get about 130% the energy density an LFP battery. My guess remains that cost, not range, will be the dominant factor for choosing chemistry for most batteries, and thus as soon as sodium anode free is viable, MOST batteries will go that route. The heavier sodium counteracts the energy density advantage of anode free tech, which basically gets you a battery with LFP energy density BUT lower cost AND far higher longevity. There will be luxury vehicles that use lithium, and higher end consumer electronics probably will (i.e. the iPhone will have an anode free Li battery but the budget phone will have sodium), but I think most cars will go for lowest first cost. We'll see.

Quantumscape

 

[Samson16]

Compare that math to any Tesla that loses $30K of value in 18 months.

Not "any" Tesla obviously. A new Model 3 standard rear wheel drive is $35k.

However, a used 2022 Model 3 for $25k plus the $4k discount is interesting.
My 2022 Subaru Outback Touring XT is valued above $30k still, but she's really pretty

 

[HammaMan]

Dodge has shelved their REV until mid 2025 so I'm guessing we won't see the RC until even later. Too many of their EVs are bricked and dealers have no clue on how to fix them.

 

[Samson16]

“I tell you brother, it’s harder than it looks. It’s a long way to the top if you want to PowerBoost.”

 

[Hullguy]

Fossil Fuel to make electricity is old school. And I like to ski. Global Warming is real and we need to keep moving away from fossil fuels.

also, there are some software solutions coming on board to better util our current grid structure

 

[780]

“I tell you brother, it’s harder than it looks. It’s a long way to the top if you want to PowerBoost.”

Thanks. Now I have bagpipes stuck in my head....

 

[HammaMan]

Fossil Fuel to make electricity is old school. And I like to ski. Global Warming is real and we need to keep moving away from fossil fuels.

It's called being in an interglacial and unfortunately these things are cyclical.

 

[crazywayne311]

- Transient loads I personally believe to be a pretty advantageous aspect especially during generator cut in/out. It's instantaneously able to add or pull energy from the grid allowing other plants to adjust power levels as required. -- a capability unique to battery storage
- It can provide peaking plant capabilities especially for operators of jet turbines as those aren't cheap. With the modular designs you can add additional batteries without the need for additional inverters to extend its operating time. They've recently switched to using LFP cells which are far safer and have much higher lifespans. LFP while requiring more space, are cheaper to source.
- Though I'm not fond of either wind or solar for grid generation, they can be used as a bandaid due to the shortcomings inherent to those systems.

I'm opposed to the idea that wind and solar are magical sources of energy as a national doctrine. In some areas like the SW where sunshine is nearly endless, yeah, solar makes sense. Installing it somewhere that doesn't get but 1/3 or less of sun than the deserts do is retarded (and it happens far more than anyone would believe). There isn't any circumstance where solar or wind should be used as "replacement" for base load nuke/coal/gas plants, or a grid solar installation be built where a hailstorm could knock it out because it will happen...

I'd like to see some type of operating agreement come out of the incoming administration basically guarantying something like 20-30 years of non-infringeable operation of coal/gas plants, shielded from any further state/fed intervention requirements without a massive penalty from whatever entity is trying to curtail the plants operation -- like no less than $1bil worth of compensation. Make the penalty such that trying to shut the place down is impossible. That also goes for the gas fields and mines that feed such plants so they can't do the typical govt nonsense of "okay well we'll just shutdown all of the mines".

This chart shows the last ~23 years of electricity generation by couple countries -- China has more ~6x'd their power generation (now double that of us) while the US is stagnant. Germany is in big trouble, but hey, at least they shut down their nuke plants

okay, derailed enough

im sorta in the industry...we have 6 simple cycle GE's...2 westinghouse and 4 GE's...anyway, we usually run for voltage support or during peak weather events. damn near ran the whole month of july.

the plant i came from was coal. at one point, the pinnacle of the coal fleet. 4 giant coal units. well 2 were retired about 10 years ago and the retired the other 2 last year.

the energy company i work for has a huge windfarm off the coast they hope to get 2500MW from. they are buying up land for solar bc they preach clean energy. the VP visited recently and i asked him about SMR's (small modular reactors) and thats their next venture. they recently announced a deal with Amazon...the VP made a point they shouldnt have retired the coal units. There was another big coal station to retire in 28 only to be pushed back another 20 years now.

The BIGGEST issue is the infrastructure. They wanna add 4 big simple cycle units where the coal units were but the lines out the plant cant handle the MW. the whole electrical grid is antiquated and needs to be addressed. I think the whole EV craze hit a snag to do the lack of infrastructure needed so people could drive without worry of running out of juice.

at this point i feel like i had a plan when i started typing but bc work is hectic i lost my train of thought haha

 

[HammaMan]

More info -- reservations for the ramcharger outnumber their EV truck 3:1 so the market is demanding the ramcharger, not the EV truck --- gosh, had they been reading this forum they'd already know the demand

 

[amschind]

I saw a 2012 Model S on Autotrader for $14k. It showed "AC and fast charging may be reduced" on a dash message, and I don't know if that's normal or if the whole car is hard broke. Still, an EV for moving you, kids, groceries around town is very hard to beat. I feel like my next step in 20 years is a dually superduty and whatever the Aptera is that that point.....min-maxing CAN work really well for predictable needs.

 

[Hullguy]

It's called being in an interglacial and unfortunately these things are cyclical.

I disagree!
But I believe that scientists and experts in their field know what they are talking about as well

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