Powerboost Exhaust Heat Exchanger Delete

[HammaMan]

I agree, but in general hoses are relatively reliable unless injured in some way (e.g. shredded by a fan). The hoses are close to the exhaust, but could be tucked farther away if not connected. The connectors and the U-joint is my biggest concern. I think that both coolant hoses are SAE Quick Release fuel fittings, which means that a part to shunt between them could be quick release fittings on both ends. I.e. the shunt is itself a quick release part and thus easy to replace for whatever reason. If I use aluminum fittings, then the likelihood of failure drops to a very low number.

Well plastic isn't just used because it's cheap. If something gets up in there since it's a truck and all, they want the $8 plastic to break, not the $1000 heat exchanger. Weak links are intentionally engineered in. Sometimes they're a little too weak.

Here's the end of their run on that vid -- had screenshot'd earlier and left it. Engine is hotter than the trans here. That fuel burn is nuts though. Trans looks to be ~3/4 like fuel. Coolant is 7/8s there. Not fond of ford's gear logic. It should have used higher RPMs instead of maxing boost using the lower to mid 4k RPM. Ford's tow haul logic isn't very smart. It's always favoring lower RPMs over practical usage causing a lot people to lock out 9 / 10 manually. Some even report better towing in normal mode w/ manual gear lockout.

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[Snakebitten]

Yea, but TFL should have more truck expertise for trucks they actually own.
99.9% of Ecoboost drivers with towing experience would have locked out gear ratios in order to bring boost down on a pull like that.

TFL should know the product better.
They aren't supposed to be another Car & Driver. Lol

Didn't it still hold 55mph even as the pcm derated the truck though? That's kinda impressive, considering.

 

[HammaMan]

Yea, but TFL should have more truck expertise for trucks they actually own.
99.9% of Ecoboost drivers with towing experience would have locked out gear ratios in order to bring boost down on a pull like that.

TFL should know the product better.
They aren't supposed to be another Car & Driver. Lol

Didn't it still hold 55mph even as the pcm derated the truck though? That's kinda impressive, considering.

"bUt wE LiKE tO tESt fAcToRy mOdE"

It's really dumb, IMO, to test it in the lowest common denominator form. People get to learn their vehicle and take all variables into account. If you're towing 10klbs, you're nowhere close to the average grocery getter. They don't use the truck for anything besides fetching mulch for the planters. Any seasoned operator knows their equipment and how best to use it.

Ford does it for noise mitigation, which is really silly as even the 'low' trims are super quiet, especially the PB. It rivals my MME which has no ICE at all. When it comes to towing, people expect to hear the motor. The last PB tests as quiet as any EV in similar conditions. It's very quiet.

 

[amschind]

Well plastic isn't just used because it's cheap. If something gets up in there since it's a truck and all, they want the $8 plastic to break, not the $1000 heat exchanger. Weak links are intentionally engineered in. Sometimes they're a little too weak.

While I agree with the concept of a fusible link, I'm not sure that I'm ready to credit the company that was replacing the $8 tube AND the $1000 heat exchanger when the $8 tube failed.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Well plastic isn't just used because it's cheap. If something gets up in there since it's a truck and all, they want the $8 plastic to break, not the $1000 heat exchanger. Weak links are intentionally engineered in. Sometimes they're a little too weak.

Here's the end of their run on that vid -- had screenshot'd earlier and left it. Engine is hotter than the trans here. That fuel burn is nuts though. Trans looks to be ~3/4 like fuel. Coolant is 7/8s there. Not fond of ford's gear logic. It should have used higher RPMs instead of maxing boost using the lower to mid 4k RPM. Ford's tow haul logic isn't very smart. It's always favoring lower RPMs over practical usage causing a lot people to lock out 9 / 10 manually. Some even report better towing in normal mode w/ manual gear lockout.

I completely agree that Ford's shift logic is crap. On my 5th gen Ranger I ran a custom tune solely for the improved transmission behavior. Something I am on the fence about doing with the PB.

 

[Snakebitten]

I completely agree that Ford's shift logic is crap. On my 5th gen Ranger I ran a custom tune solely for the improved transmission behavior. Something I am on the fence about doing with the PB.

One thing for sure is that the 10r80 is a very tunable transmission by its very design.

I'm convinced that they have manufacturing variances in them that naturally lead to one shifting better/worse than another.

I've had 4 personal 10r80s. They all had their own personalities.

I did have one tuned (GearHead tuning) It was by far the most polished and consistent.

 

[Samson16]

Yea, but TFL should have more truck expertise for trucks they actually own.
99.9% of Ecoboost drivers with towing experience would have locked out gear ratios in order to bring boost down on a pull like that.

TFL should know the product better.
They aren't supposed to be another Car & Driver. Lol

Didn't it still hold 55mph even as the pcm derated the truck though? That's kinda impressive, considering.

I was impressed that the truck never actually overheated but ran hot so a protection scheme kicked in, and it continued towing heavy uphill at altitude while keeping a safe speed. I actually like seeing the limits of the factory settings, so I never have to. Better his truck than mine…

 

[Samson16]

There is another episode where a GMC 6.2L overheats and has to pull to the side so the tranny can cool down. I believe it was the transmission, but I could be mistaken. I remember thinking “Isn’t that a jointly designed unit? Maybe Ford just tweaked it better?” while watching the GM idle on the side of the road bleeding off heat soak.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

One thing for sure is that the 10r80 is a very tunable transmission by its very design.

I'm convinced that they have manufacturing variances in them that naturally lead to one shifting better/worse than another.

I've had 4 personal 10r80s. They all had their own personalities.

I did have one tuned (GearHead tuning) It was by far the most polished and consistent.

That they are. The Ranger when stock had a consistently harsh/jerky shift to it. No table resets or any updates would smooth it out but after adding the 5* daily/tow tune it was a completely different beast. Butter smooth and no engine lugging on surface streets making for a blissful commute. The 93 performance tune would make it absolutely come alive. Smooth as silk under light throttle but would light em up with the 2nd and 3rd shifts when I romped on it. Hopefully SCT will add support for the BDX tuner module on the PB so I can go back with 5* daily/tow or get Unleashed's tune by Torrie. That man is an absolute genius with the 10r80's.

 

[Snakebitten]

I watched a fascinating 5 part video on the 10r80.
It's a few years old now but it is an amazing piece of engineering. And one of the reasons it is so tunable is because the various clutches can be controlled with considerable granularity. The electronic solenoids that are being managed by the PCM/TCM are sensitive to tiny variances in current, which can determine fluid pressure and timing of each clutch in very small degrees. So based on the nuances of a specific 10r80, the tuner can increase/decrease the clutch pressure and timing.

 

[amschind]

I watched a fascinating 5 part video on the 10r80.
It's a few years old now but it is an amazing piece of engineering. And one of the reasons it is so tunable is because the various clutches can be controlled with considerable granularity. The electronic solenoids that are being managed by the PCM/TCM are sensitive to tiny variances in current, which can determine fluid pressure and timing of each clutch in very small degrees. So based on the nuances of a specific 10r80, the tuner can increase/decrease the clutch pressure and timing.

And that's great, but I think the main weakness with regard to the hybrid is that the 10R80 can't really change gearing very well. The huge advatnge that 10 gears brings to a normal ICE vehicle is the same reason that 18 wheelers have a gazillion gears: close gears and LOTS of them means that the engine is nearly always at its best efficiency point. The hybrid motor isn't just for electric mode: it also adds torque when increasing RPMs in a way that is FAR more efficient that an ICE, which can only do that by increasing fuel delivery. That difference reduces the value of close gearing. In addition, the relatively small electric motor in the PB (vs say the Aviator Hybrid with a 3.0/ 100 ft lb motor) is that it needs short gears at the low end to stay in all electric mode, but can also benefit from taller gears at higher speed for better highway efficiency. You can't fix that with a different rear end, because the anwser isn't globally taller or shorter gears.....it's WIDER gears.

Ultimately, I don't think that this will ever be addressed because series hybrids with 1 or at most 2 gear ratios (which works due to the VERY wide power band of electric motors) likely built into the differential will take over instead of further work on a conventional transmission. I am still interested in hub motors, but Ford AND Tesla both independently decided that a wheel hub is just too harsh of an environment for an electric motor and its bearings. My hope is that further R&D gets us to a point where hub motors are practical, because they eliminate nearly all of the components of the drive train and allow for some really cool torque vectoring. The argument against them due to the increase in un-sprung weight has actually vanished because that handling deficit is more than compensated for with active torque vectoring. You can only ever get one motor's worth of power at each wheel, but if you re-invest some of the weight savings from diff/housing and CV shafts into bigger motors, the actual difference in motive power even with 1 or 2 wheels grabbing may be insignificant.

 

[Snakebitten]

My reply regarding the 10r80 design and tunability was in response to shifting quality mentioned.

As for having a 10-speed in the Powerboost specifically? Since that little motor isn't even intended to be capable of accelerating the F150 in EV mode, I personally don't have a gripe with the 10r80 mixed with the EV capabilities. Whatever gear ratio the truck is in for cruising with ICE, it seems to be a good enough gear ratio for the little motor to support EV cruising at that same speed. Or at least I don't get the feeling that the gear ratio needs to be altered in order for the electric motor to temporarily sustain the momentum.

As little as 30amps/280V (according to pid) can sustain the truck at 50mph on flat ground.

 

[HammaMan]

the relatively small electric motor in the PB (vs say the Aviator Hybrid with a 3.0/ 100 ft lb motor) is that it needs short gears at the low end to stay in all electric mode, but can also benefit from taller gears at higher speed for better highway efficiency. You can't fix that with a different rear end, because the anwser isn't globally taller or shorter gears.....it's WIDER gears.

The aviators motor = 2 PB motors (70kw vs 35kw, power wise, not literally 2 of them). It has 200lbtq, the PB's has 100ftlbs. Funny thing, even revving up the engine in park, the electric motor joins the party. When you let off the gas it switches into generation and gobbles the power back up. The PB's motor is actually a 40kw, but it can only do that in generation mode where the accessories eat the power. It limits current to the battery. If only they could add a dynamic brake (resistive) like a locomotive has

 

[turbopilot]

Some thoughts about the plastic fittings that are failing and causing leaks. I inspected my heat exchanger and fittings. The exhaust and heat exchanger are "hanging" under the chassis. It is made to move and wiggle probably to account for thermal expansion. The coolant lines coming into those plastic fittings on the heat exchanger are hard mounted to the frame. So any movement of the exhaust is going to be transmitted through those fittings. I loosened up and moved around the coolant lines after finding some preload between the hard mounted coolant lines and the fittings on the heat exchanger. My guess is movement of that assembly is causing fatigue it the hot plastic fittings leading to cracks in the fittings.

 

[amschind]

Some thoughts about the plastic fittings that are failing and causing leaks. I inspected my heat exchanger and fittings. The exhaust and heat exchanger are "hanging" under the chassis. It is made to move and wiggle probably to account for thermal expansion. The coolant lines coming into those plastic fittings on the heat exchanger are hard mounted to the frame. So any movement of the exhaust is going to be transmitted through those fittings. I loosened up and moved around the coolant lines after finding some preload between the hard mounted coolant lines and the fittings on the heat exchanger. My guess is movement of that assembly is causing fatigue it the hot plastic fittings leading to cracks in the fittings.

Yes. The fatigue limit for plastic exposed to extreme and repeated fluctuations in temperature from "freezing cold" to "exhaust hot" and then jiggled the entire time is....predictably poor.

I'm gonna chat with my mechanic about seeing if we can built a bypass circuit out of aluminum that just plugs into the SAE quick release fittings that are already present. Then we put a temporary piece of exhaust pipe in place of the functional unit that is currently installed, keep that monster in a safe spot, and see what codes it throws. If it doesn't start throwing T1-T2 delta too low codes (i.e. just throws codes for the valve and position sensor being AWOL), that means that the simple expedient is to buy a leaking unit with a good valve and position sensor and just use that as a dongle when I get the truck inspected. If I do that in the summer with the AC cranked down to MIN, then hopefully the temp sensor won't trigger because the valve is only doing a sort of power on self-test and there is never an expected temperature delta in the temp sensors (which will just be measuring two spots about 6" apart on the same unadulterated coolant loop).

If I can keep the codes at bay long enough to get it inspected each year, then I will get the temporary pipe removed and will do a full stainless dual exhaust complete with high flow cats, a Flowmonster dual 2.5" in/out muffler and PTP quartz wrap. The whole cab is covered in Dynamat, so hopefuly that +the wrap keeps exhaust noise tolerable. Worst case I'll go to a 70 series.

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