Powerboost defeated after changing tires

[dannko58]

EH? not sure what message you are trying to relay here, my post is accurate because it's physics.

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[nicholsbradley]

I must agree with others. It's not your level or tires. I have a 2022 PB with an RC Loaded strut Level 33 12.50R20. I corrected the speed with an RC Speed Cal and mine works in PB like normal. I lost maybe 1 or 2 MPG.

 

[NoCo150]

I live in a rural area with tough dirt roads getting home. I was also looking at getting a beefier tire as the Hankooks get flats from rocks. I saw this post and when I was at Ford they were doing a wheel and tire package sale. The tires were Wildpeaks and the wheels looked good so I asked about what I had read here that the EV doesn’t kick in once tires are changed. Ford tech said they adjust the tire selection in the onboard computer and it will work the same. I am getting a solid 20-21 mph all stock and dont want to give up much of that. I am in the mountains in Colorado so great milage into town down hill and then the take back going home.

 

[Samson16]

take my word is almost completely nixed, unless your at the last few feet after braking to a stop. It is almost non-existent vs before the tires the electric had been up to 33% of the total mileage, mostly around 25%.

I don't understand why you jack up your truck, put huge all terrain tires on it and then complain about gas mileage?

 

[nomarhits400]

I don't understand why you jack up your truck, put huge all terrain tires on it and then complain about gas mileage?

There are compromises that will work though. If you swap out the 295 Recon’s for the 275/65 (34”) or 275/60’s (33”)- you can achieve most of the look of the 295’s (in my opinion) while only sacrificing -1 mpg. Maybe not even that. They are only -5 pounds more than stock…. However, going with the 6/8/10 ply tires- and then worrying about mileage is a fruitless endeavor I think. Some of those weigh upwards of 70 lbs. each vs 48 lbs. for the 275/65/20 SL’s. All that extra unsprung weight is going to destroy mileage (obviously).

Adding a lift is only going to exacerbate all the above effects.

 

[Samson16]

Agreed. If I go with a Livernois tune and sport suspension with road gripping tires, or a 4" lift and monster truck it, I know I'm saying goodbye to the stock performance attributes.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I had a GMC Canyon diesel before my F150.

The 4x4 diesel had an EPA rating of 28 mpg highway.

GM offered an offroad ZR2 version with a factory 2" lift, AT aggressive tires, wider track, etc. and it has an EPA rating of 22 mpg highway.

I mention this to just point out that tires/ lifts/ wide tracks really have a significant effect on overall economy when measured under controlled circumstances, no getting around it.

 

[nomarhits400]

Yep, no doubt- that's another way to offset the difference. Shoot- doing it that way you can end up with a larger tire and have less weight at the corners than stock. That's the direction I'd like to go- but my pocketbook isn't up to the task- and to be honest, the look of the BAP wheels is growing on me.

 

[Suns_PSD]

That doesn't really work because:
1) the weight furthest from the centerline matters much more due to moment of inertia,
2) AT tires will always create additional drag all on their own.

For sure a lighter overall set up provides advantages but this particular change isn't going to offset the drag and weight of a heavier AT tire.

The other big thing is the large rims hurt economy as well as acceleration and braking performance. Even if you are able to get the overall weight and diameter identical between a big rim vs. a small rim set up.

This is because there is a concentration of weight where the tire and rim bead is located and moving it further from the center line increases momentum.

Consider this: You and your buddies when you were kids are spinning each other around on your dad's bar stools and you notice that when your legs are out far from the centerline (aka straight) you are spinning at a constant speed, but as soon as you pull your legs in your speed essentially doubles. No increases in energy put in (aka, your buddy didn't spin you faster) and you and the stool weigh exactly the same, yet you sped up. Well big rims are the version of you with your legs out, and small rims are you with your legs tucked in.

This is before you even consider the fact that in identical rims/ tires that the smaller diameter wheel/ tire combo is always going to weigh less because of the big reduction in that heavy bead area.

 

[amschind]

I have BFG T/A KO2s on Weld 20" flow formed wheels because that combo is as close to stock weight as I as I could get. Even so, I get lower mileage and electric kicks in far less. That's the price you pay for having LT rated AT tires. This isn't your fault, as we didn't do something unreasonable (LT rated AT tires on a 4x4 truck isn't the same thing as a 10" suspension lift with 44" Boggers). Ford's effort at the first Powerboost, while probably the best powertrain made today, is a goofy first effort kludge that tries to do about 3 mutually exclusive things for impractical reasons. I'll divide this into two parts so folks don't waste time:

The Issue, Its Causes and Its Solutions:
The 3.5L+47HP electric motor+10R80 in an F150 chassis was a dumb idea born of marketing: the engine has enough power to be in a 1 ton, but isn't even offered in the HDPP. The one reason to pair these components together is to avoid the label of "wimpy tree-hugger hybrid". For a half ton chassis, a 2.3L I4+the Aviator electric motor+10R80 would've been able to tow the same amount but could've approached 30 MPG, while the bigger electric motor would've enabled it to go all-electric far more often. That isn't really the long term solution, as the better overall layout is a Lightning chassis with the batteries removed and a small Fox or Dragon Ecoboost that is either WAO full boost or off driving a generator in a series hybrid setup. Thanks to Dodge having the sense to offer a "range extender" in their REV, other makers will take note when that cannibalizes sales from the other truck EVs and follow suit.

What We Can Do:
As others have stated, the weight of the tire matters more than the weight of the weight of the wheel due to distance from the axis of rotation, but it still helps. The Weld W101 was the lightest that I found at 28#, which is about 7# lighter than the stock wheel but with the same rating as it is flow formed. The fact that it's flow formed helps, as that essentially means that outside is forged while the spokes are cast....most of the weight savings over the fully cast stock wheel are out the outside of the wheel. Further, forged wheels are universally higher rated but also heavier: you won't get more by paying more. The other big thing that you can do on the highway is SLOW DOWN. This obviously doesn't help much if you're mostly city driving, but 60-65 MP behind a big rig gets dramatically better mileage than 75 MPH with nothing in front of you but the open road. Even with electric kicking in less, 45-55 MPH is still the sweet spot. Finally, all electric mode is not the only or even the main reason that these trucks have an electric motor (though it could've and arguably should've been). ICEs are highly inefficient at accelerating, but electric motors are. The instant 95% efficient torque from the electric motor dramatically improves acceleration, while the regen braking means that your brakes should last 2-3x longer unless you drive like a teenager. The Powerboost is not only the best at ACCELERATION, it is also the best at DECELERATION. Use that.

 

[Suns_PSD]

as the better overall layout is a Lightning chassis with the batteries removed and a small Fox or Dragon Ecoboost that is either WAO full boost or off driving a generator in a series hybrid setup. Thanks to Dodge having the sense to offer a "range extender" in their REV, other makers will take note when that cannibalizes sales from the other truck EVs and follow suit.

What I envision is the following:

A plug in EV full size pickup truck with about a 65 kw battery pack, or thereabouts, enough to cover 75% of daily driving without as much weight or cost as a 200 kwh battery pack that you otherwise would carry around full time, but only use occasionally and then when you do, it still isn't really enough. With a substantial generator ICE engine onboard, operating efficiently at a fixed rpm, that can range extend/ even charge while parked, is the future solution that I hope for.

Electric motors are the superior propulsion system. Instant torque, regen capabilities, torque vectoring, 90% efficient, gets rids of now redundant parts of the drivetrain, etc.

However, batteries aren't very energy dense. Gasoline is much better at energy storage.

It would be easy for most truck users to enjoy all the drivability and environmental benefits of a full EV, while ditching the negatives of high cost combined with limited range. Basically, a locomotive.

You also gain great truck functionality with a power station on board at all times. For many users that generator motor would rarely fire up making required maintenance very low.

 

[amschind]

What I envision is the following:

A plug in EV full size pickup truck with about a 65 kw battery pack, or thereabouts, enough to cover 75% of daily driving without as much weight or cost as a 200 kwh battery pack that you otherwise would carry around full time, but only use occasionally and then when you do, it still isn't really enough. With a substantial generator ICE engine onboard, operating efficiently at a fixed rpm, that can range extend/ even charge while parked, is the future solution that I hope for.

Electric motors are the superior propulsion system. Instant torque, regen capabilities, torque vectoring, 90% efficient, gets rids of now redundant parts of the drivetrain, etc.

However, batteries aren't very energy dense. Gasoline is much better at energy storage.

It would be easy for most truck users to enjoy all the drivability and environmental benefits of a full EV, while ditching the negatives of high cost combined with limited range. Basically, a locomotive.

You also gain great truck functionality with a power station on board at all times. For many users that generator motor would rarely fire up making required maintenance very low.

Yes.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Also use the cheap EV batteries made from Iron. They are a bit less energy dense but can be daily charged from 0 -100% with no degradation.

They cost much less, but also going to the extremes doesn't matter anymore, because you have a generator.

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