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vs. CyberTruck - A fair shake

Samson16

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An EV enthusiast buddy of mine is taking delivery in March of an R1S, even a busy 30 something couple with 2 messy kids picked white for the interior ??‍♂
That Storm Trooper Tesla/Apple/PS5 vibe is hard to shake lol
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HammaMan

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The CT does feel different in that Tesla got out ahead with ideas that proved very difficult to deliver. I think some have mentioned, perhaps this “Foundation” model is more of a concept still, but they just couldn’t delay any longer.
Well the one thing tesla is good at is making changes as warranted. Not sure how far out they produce their components given they're in charge of the production, but I'd assume we're looking at a max of 1-3 months to make needed changes. Their vehicles are under a never-ending cycle of improvement. There's not really a single thing they won't just change in the middle of a run. From what I've been able to gather ever 3-4 months they'll drop in a few changes for improvements. They don't do 3 year cycles of the same nonsense resulting in a multi-year recall. See something out of place and they rectify it. Find a more efficient inverter design and boom it's everywhere. Most of their drivetrain parts are in all of the vehicles. Model Y was a big evolution and now all of the cars have many model Y components.

They're about to release their 3rd iteration of the 4680 cell and I suspect they'll show up in CT by Q2 if not sooner. Should be another 10% capacity bump in them. With range extender that'd be 190kWh with 380-437 mile range at 70mph if they find a 20% aero and drivetrain efficiency to make (better tires is a start, matching lightning and rivian's efficiency). Compare that to 254 as tested today, that's huge. It could get 200 miles in just 15 minutes on the charger, 267 in 20 minutes. That really becomes a whole other vehicle. But still, we're talking 72,500 purchase price + $16k battery = $88,500. That's a lot of $ for meh amount of vehicle. Maybe do the batt for $10k?
 

UNIKRN150

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Tesla is all about innovation. And their innovation is changing the entire Auto Industry.

Will trucks of the future be made with Stainless Steel body panels?
Probably not.

Will they adopt the exoskeleton concept?
Maybe.

Will they be made from stamped out frames?
Ford & Hyundai already have Giga-Presses on order.

Will they adopt the "48 volt system”
Inevitably. It just makes too much sense.

Will other manufacturers ditch the “canbus” system for a gigabit Etherloop?
Of course!

Will they adopt “steer by wire”?
Why wouldn’t they?

Tesla is teaching the entire auto industry to stop thinking about their products as modern horseless carriages and start thinking about them as Smartphones with wheels.

Love or “hate” the Cybertruck… it IS to the auto industry what the iPod was to cassette decks!
 
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HammaMan

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Tesla is all about innovation. And their innovation is changing the entire Auto Industry.

Will trucks of the future be made with Stainless Steel body panels?
Probably not.

Will they adopt the exoskeleton concept?
Maybe.

Will they be made from stamped out frames?
Ford & Hyundai already have Giga-Presses on order.

Will they adopt the "48 volt system”
Inevitably. It just makes too much sense.

Will other manufacturers ditch the “canbus” system for a gigabit Etherloop?
Of course!

Will they adopt “steer by wire”?
Why wouldn’t they?

Tesla is teaching the entire auto industry to stop thinking about their products as modern horseless carriages and start thinking about them as Smartphones with wheels.

Love or “hate” the Cybertruck… it IS to the auto industry what the iPod was to cassette decks!
Ford already has a 6 ton gigapress, hyundai has a 9 ton unit, both are at their respective R&D facilities meaning we're 4 or 5 years away from seeing them be utilized at any meaningful scale. Tesla's history with them has already given them an edge in making long-life molds that exceed typical industry life by at least 4x.

Stainless body panels aren't going to catch on due to the fact they're severely limited in the shape they can make them. All but 1 piece of the CT is made with conventional press brakes simply folding the material giving it its required angled polygon look. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense to use a better, thicker aluminum alloy to increase a body panel's strength. Ford's truck body panels are laughably weak as it is. Metal isn't even needed for body panels though. Carbon reinforced polymers could provide significantly stronger body panels that don't dent at all and are much lighter.

Tesla's electrical vehicle architectures have always been far better thought out and implemented than legacy auto. Ford and its cousins have gotten far too used to just letting other companies make modules for them and adapt themselves to the requirements of said suppliers. They really need a top-down restructuring of every means of conducting business and manufacture parts. 1 part for an F150 can have 10 different unique part numbers over the course of a 3 year run, while relying on 4 or 5 other parts just like it to make 1 function. Tesla combines the functions of the other parts and puts it into a single module, and that 1 part is used across the fleet. Ford would rather have 60-70 unique parts across the fleet instead of a single part to replace them all. This systemic failure can only be solved from the top down.

It's still yet to be seen what exactly the CT ends up being. It was just released by a prominent auto reviewer that most of the CTs that'd been running around as 'production models' are actually employee models that if 'loaned' to a reviewer came with caveats about the, let's call it the approved narrative. With 400 of them having already been delivered, we're just now finding out the specs on range and charging and they're pretty disappointing. Sure a few pieces of the architecture are clear evolutions, but the vehicle as a package is rather underwhelming. It's quite far from an ipod cassette comparison.
 

UNIKRN150

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Ford already has a 6 ton gigapress, hyundai has a 9 ton unit, both are at their respective R&D facilities meaning we're 4 or 5 years away from seeing them be utilized at any meaningful scale. Tesla's history with them has already given them an edge in making long-life molds that exceed typical industry life by at least 4x.

Stainless body panels aren't going to catch on due to the fact they're severely limited in the shape they can make them. All but 1 piece of the CT is made with conventional press brakes simply folding the material giving it its required angled polygon look. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense to use a better, thicker aluminum alloy to increase a body panel's strength. Ford's truck body panels are laughably weak as it is. Metal isn't even needed for body panels though. Carbon reinforced polymers could provide significantly stronger body panels that don't dent at all and are much lighter.

Tesla's electrical vehicle architectures have always been far better thought out and implemented than legacy auto. Ford and its cousins have gotten far too used to just letting other companies make modules for them and adapt themselves to the requirements of said suppliers. They really need a top-down restructuring of every means of conducting business and manufacture parts. 1 part for an F150 can have 10 different unique part numbers over the course of a 3 year run, while relying on 4 or 5 other parts just like it to make 1 function. Tesla combines the functions of the other parts and puts it into a single module, and that 1 part is used across the fleet. Ford would rather have 60-70 unique parts across the fleet instead of a single part to replace them all. This systemic failure can only be solved from the top down.

It's still yet to be seen what exactly the CT ends up being. It was just released by a prominent auto reviewer that most of the CTs that'd been running around as 'production models' are actually employee models that if 'loaned' to a reviewer came with caveats about the, let's call it the approved narrative. With 400 of them having already been delivered, we're just now finding out the specs on range and charging and they're pretty disappointing. Sure a few pieces of the architecture are clear evolutions, but the vehicle as a package is rather underwhelming. It's quite far from an ipod cassette comparison.
"It's still yet to be seen what exactly the CT ends up being"?

How do you figure? They're delivering Production Models to paying customers every day.

If you're referring to the "next generation" Cybertruck, you could also say "It's still yet to be seen what exactly the Ford Lightning ends up being" and I bet it will end up being a hell of a lot more like the 2024 Tesla Cybertruck than the 2024 Ford Lightning.

Real world:

There is NO WAY a Ford Lightning could keep up with a Cybertruck off road. That thing has the ground clearance of a Porsche 911 and the technology of a 1990's fighter jet!

As far as "range" goes... the Cybertruck with the extended range option can go up to 470 Miles on a charge. Ford Lighting's extended battery gets you 320 Miles.

And as far as "how SAFE is your family?"...

Cybertruck Head-on collision: youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=_YG-ari2uuE
-vs-
Ford Lightning Head-on collision: youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=tpjX8XC1d1Y

...see for yourself what happens in the real world.

Granted... a Cybertruck with the extended battery option will cost you nearly twice what a Ford Lightning "extended range" costs... but the iPod when it was introduced cost 4X what the best portable cassette deck cost. ...and let's not forget that Ford LOSES money on every EV they sell!

No... it's exactly an "iPod/Cassette" comparison inside and out.


That said... I don't own a Cybertruck. I'm NOT on "the list" for a Cybertruck... "I AM" a happy Ford F150 5.0 4x4 owner and plan to be for years to come! ...that's "why" I'm here.

But I know what my "next" truck will be if Ford doesn't get their shit together....
 
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Samson16

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Elon should try Milwaukee M18 batteries. I swear I haven't put my impact battery on the charger for 3 months.
 
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HammaMan

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...
But I know what my "next" truck will be if Ford doesn't get their shit together....
Where is the CT off road video? I think you're assuming much. Here's where theory breaks from reality. Electric with discrete non-connected driveline, as of yet, is a rather underwhelming experience. Whereas a normal 4x4 driveline that can lock together and provide a uniform wheel loading experience, electric can't yet cut it. Rivian w/ its quad motors has the best shot at nailing torque vectoring but misses. I've seen nothing as of yet to indicate CT is any different. They do allow for somewhat of a torque bias a 4a of sorts, but it's software and at any point any of them can nail it. I have the lightning's sister and that's some of the best torque vectoring I've seen.

If you watch the 35mph rigid barrier video that breaks the rear steer of the CT, when super imposed against the 14th gen F150, you watch the CT driver get their neck snapped back as they slide down into the floorboard. It's really unsettling to watch. Curious how the ER pack in the bed adding another 470kg or so changes the driving dynamics. Suddenly there's a substantial mass well up above where it's wanted.

Just saw another video where their speeds were in the 76ish MPH range and wow the range dropped down into 220 miles. Again, that's nothing to brag about, that's horrible 580wh/m. 90 minutes of charging per 3 hours of driving. That's really shitty. You can't sugar coat it, there's no lipstick fix. It's a function of battery size and efficiency and the delicate balance that can make an EV work, or fail. This is just a fail. I hoped it'd be more and really shift the bar. As an EV and truck owner I experience what's required continually. I have no rose colored glasses or need someone to interpret the data for me.

CT is, what video games have become, a half ready product in desperate need of software updates with no resolution announced. The 2021 F150 with basic lane centering has more ADAS capability than CT does today. The 2025 ram as of right now is going to set a bar in usability. Sure it'll be a 12v LV architecture and probably not have rear steer, and that's okay because that's quite far from the weak point of EVs today, in-fact not even on the list of must haves. Those are consolation prizes at best.
 
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Samson16

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We don't know if the RamCharger and it's tiny 92kWh battery lugging around an ICE generator will be a success or not. It's a year away still. Does it even exist as a prototype yet or is still an artists' rendering?
 

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There are no efficient pure EV trucks.
Heck, there's only a handful in existence. You can count them on one hand with fingers left over.

They ALL drain their batteries at a remarkable rate. Currently they are all the electrical equivalent of the old 460 cubic inch 8 mpg F350. ?

2 miles per KWH (or less) is a gas guzzler, no matter how BIG a battery you can stuff into the chassis.

Tesla IS guilty of over promising and under delivering on many aspects of the Cybetruck. They have now joined the crowd of every other EV truck manufacturer. Including the ones that are still vaporware. You simply can't compete on co$t with the platform, truck in this case, because it takes way too much battery (gas tank) to get any range. Pigs are pigs.

Still, the Cybetruck just seems like the most FUN electric truck yet. And fun to drive is one thing electric vehicles have it easy to deliver.

Too bad in truck form that fun is SO expensive.
 
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We don't know if the RamCharger and it's tiny 92kWh battery lugging around an ICE generator will be a success or not. It's a year away still. Does it even exist as a prototype yet or is still an artists' rendering?
We can do the math. It will weigh less than CT w its ER battery pack in while setting a new range / time of "charge" for the distance, and of course have a spare and a full bed. It's an EV for all practical purposes, but ICE convenience when needed. I follow this sector well and know the competitors, but energy density is what it is. There's no magic battery 4 years out. How they balance a gas tank that isn't needed 90% or more of the time is yet to be seen. Great opportunity to burn half a gallon or so, at least in winter and take full advantage of the amount of heat an ICE wastes.

Even the ram big battery EV has ~220kWh usable in it. The miles/min charge rate is going to do amazing as is its initial range. It should be around 2.2-2.3 miles/kWh at 70mph with 220kWh usable, it's an easy 470 miles range at 70mph. It will gain 200 miles in ~16-18 minutes. This is what the CT should have been, but it seems they wanted to just get something out the door. Right now, at this moment, CT is a lateral move with some new tech while also coming up short in quite a few areas. It should have a hud at the very least with the IPC delete (a revolutionary one). The tiny battery size with lackluster charging is just bad. This would have been competitive in 2021.
 

UNIKRN150

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Where is the CT off road video? I think you're assuming much. Here's where theory breaks from reality. Electric with discrete non-connected driveline, as of yet, is a rather underwhelming experience. Whereas a normal 4x4 driveline that can lock together and provide a uniform wheel loading experience, electric can't yet cut it. Rivian w/ its quad motors has the best shot at nailing torque vectoring but misses. I've seen nothing as of yet to indicate CT is any different. They do allow for somewhat of a torque bias a 4a of sorts, but it's software and at any point any of them can nail it. I have the lightning's sister and that's some of the best torque vectoring I've seen.

If you watch the 35mph rigid barrier video that breaks the rear steer of the CT, when super imposed against the 14th gen F150, you watch the CT driver get their neck snapped back as they slide down into the floorboard. It's really unsettling to watch. Curious how the ER pack in the bed adding another 470kg or so changes the driving dynamics. Suddenly there's a substantial mass well up above where it's wanted.

Just saw another video where their speeds were in the 76ish MPH range and wow the range dropped down into 220 miles. Again, that's nothing to brag about, that's horrible 580wh/m. 90 minutes of charging per 3 hours of driving. That's really shitty. You can't sugar coat it, there's no lipstick fix. It's a function of battery size and efficiency and the delicate balance that can make an EV work, or fail. This is just a fail. I hoped it'd be more and really shift the bar. As an EV and truck owner I experience what's required continually. I have no rose colored glasses or need someone to interpret the data for me.

CT is, what video games have become, a half ready product in desperate need of software updates with no resolution announced. The 2021 F150 with basic lane centering has more ADAS capability than CT does today. The 2025 ram as of right now is going to set a bar in usability. Sure it'll be a 12v LV architecture and probably not have rear steer, and that's okay because that's quite far from the weak point of EVs today, in-fact not even on the list of must haves. Those are consolation prizes at best.
I don’t know how much off-roading you’ve done but I’ve been traversing the mountains of Northern California and the deserts of Northern Nevada for 40 years.

Jeeps, Land Cruisers, Sierras, Pathfinders… you name it.

I don’t have to wait for “the video” to know that ground clearance is everything in the mountains and speed is everything in the desert.

When I look through my “rose colored glasses”, I see a GEN14 RCSB F150 5.0 4x4 parked in my driveway. NOT a Cybertruck or any of the other above-mentioned vehicles.

For what I would pay “today” for a Lightning, Rivian or a Cybertruck… I could get a brand new FULLY LOADED F150 5.0 4x4 and a SHIT LOAD of gas cans so I could tow any EV back down the mountain to a “charging station”. …WITH a “TESLA” plug it’s worth noting.

But I see what’s coming. Someday in the future I might have a hard time filling my gas cans and EVs will be towing ME back down the mountain.

And when that time comes, the EV towing me will likely resemble a 2024 Tesla Cybertruck more than a 2024 F150 lightning.


That’s all I’m saying.
 
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UNIKRN150

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There are no efficient pure EV trucks.
Heck, there's only a handful in existence. You can count them on one hand with fingers left over.

They ALL drain their batteries at a remarkable rate. Currently they are all the electrical equivalent of the old 460 cubic inch 8 mpg F350. ?

2 miles per KWH (or less) is a gas guzzler, no matter how BIG a battery you can stuff into the chassis.

Tesla IS guilty of over promising and under delivering on many aspects of the Cybetruck. They have now joined the crowd of every other EV truck manufacturer. Including the ones that are still vaporware. You simply can't compete on co$t with the platform, truck in this case, because it takes way too much battery (gas tank) to get any range. Pigs are pigs.

Still, the Cybetruck just seems like the most FUN electric truck yet. And fun to drive is one thing electric vehicles have it easy to deliver.

Too bad in truck form that fun is SO expensive.
EVs are great "around town" or commuter vehicles and if that's what you're buying an EV for, then a Cybertruck isn't going to be your 1st choice.

But neither is a Rivan or an F150 Lightning.

But if you plan to do a lot of off-roading... well, your choice is clear.

Ford F-150 vs. CyberTruck - A fair shake Gas


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I agree with everything that @HammaMan said in the first post. When I was looking at new truck a couple of years back, I briefly considered a Lightning, but pretty quickly discounted it because EVs just aren't good at long distance towing (my main reason for a truck purchase). Maybe in 10 years technology will have improved, but I wouldn't seriously consider any EV truck offering from any of the current manufacturers anytime soon.

I love the innovation and risk taking as well. As I am reading these well thought out posts, I keep thinking Tesla makes the best EVs. I would purchase a 3,Y,X, or S before choosing any of competitors and the same goes for the CT.
But your post reminded me why I think that Tesla as a company would probably be better off without Elon at the helm. It's clear (based on his Twitter posts) that he never moved beyond his inner 14-year-old, and has a big enough bank account that nobody in any of his companies is willing to tell him that his ideas are sometimes garbage (clearly not all of them, but some). I have no doubt that it was Elon directly that came up with the Tesla model names--I'm sure that he thinks that he's clever that his models are named S3XY (using his favorite internet spelling).

If the CT had the specs to back up its initial claims, I think that I could get past its horrendous appearance. However, as it is, it truly gives me vibes of that Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car and everybody is scared to tell him that his ideas are garbage, and ends up with this monstrosity:

Ford F-150 vs. CyberTruck - A fair shake 1704645601225
 
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But your post reminded me why I think that Tesla as a company would probably be better off without Elon at the helm. It's clear (based on his Twitter posts) that he never moved beyond his inner 14-year-old, and has a big enough bank account that nobody in any of his companies is willing to tell him that his ideas are sometimes garbage (clearly not all of them, but some). I have no doubt that it was Elon directly that came up with the Tesla model names--I'm sure that he thinks that he's clever that his models are named S3XY (using his favorite internet spelling).
Honestly, name any CEO you think would do a better job? The "only a delivery event" where he was way off game by all appearances. is probably due to gripes I've outlined in the thread. He knows where it stands against the competition -- he didn't seem proud of it, could just be my interpretation, but I watched it and had more questions than answers by the end of it. Tesla as a package is typically decently efficient, which means its average charging rate can deliver good miles/min while DCFC (on a network that just works too).

Tesla can't charge like the EGMP platform however, which can do 10%-80% in 15-18 minutes thanks to its 800v architecture. CT has 800v architecture, but it can't actually connect to any 800v chargers right now. All current tesla chargers are 400v, and none of the CCS to NACS adapters work with it as CCS chargers are 800v. That's not really what's holding it back though, it really begins to taper charging right after 25% SOC. Even on a 45f degree evening with the battery cooling on, it was up at 131f while charging, after 90 minutes on charge at that. That's pretty much the temp limit for charging so there's not going to be anything but small incremental improvements via OTA.

Keep in mind the add-on pack and 800v charging will actually give it a healthy bump in charging performance, but it's a whole other vehicle at that point with more than half of the bed taken up between the batt and the spare, with only around 1400lbs payload left as curb balloons to 7klbs.
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