Buy-back approved. Any advice much appreciated.

[Newman]

I’m sorry that you’re going through this. I wish you the best of luck.

Thank you. I actually wish it was happening to my truck instead of my wife's vehicle but that's how it goes I guess. When I find out new info about the explorer I will post. Thanks again.

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[Buyer2021]

No solace for the OP, begging tolerance of the somewhat off-topic discussion ....

IMO one might reasonably wonder if a big part of the after-sale service problem is that the diagnostic tools aren't keeping up with the real-world combination of advancing vehicle technology and receding technician skills?

I don't know how long but methinks FDRS has been around with the same basic capabilities for a long time. And looking at the Service Manual, many of the FDRS-based troubleshooting matrices seem discouragingly long and tedious.

It strikes me that if manufacturers can't / won't raise the level of technician skills then they must eventually develop tools to close that gap.

It'd doubtless be a huge undertaking (both dollars and development time / effort), but maybe it's time for manufacturers to seriously revisit and re-think diagnostic tools (and how they interact with vehicles, maybe the current OBD port is insufficient) with the realities of current tech skills and vehicle complexity in mind?

I really dislike the overused buzz-phrase and its many disreputable / overblown implications, but dare I say:
"AI" ..... ?

OR, maybe manufacturers have looked at all of this and determined it's not 'worth it'. If so, IMO that's likely a seriously misguided case of kicking-the-can-down-the-road.

 

[HammaMan]

I have a feeling that it's not the tech in the vehicles, it's the wiring. Modern manufacturing of electronics is rock solid. The machines that put circuit boards together are amazing to watch with the precision and speed they assemble things. Furthermore the components on them are also more than capable of providing decades of life.

Take modern computer hardware in general. There's thousands of possible part combinations and they just work. The issue for someone like ford is they might buy module A from a company while not negotiating full rights to the underlying code. Hell they might not even have the means to do anything to it due to locked bootloaders or obfuscated code (the lines of code are ran though a process that turns them into nonsense for the simple fact of thwarting someone from making sense of it).

Furthermore there's diagnostic tools in FDRS that I'd bet 90% of techs don't even know exist. Take for instance the bus diagnostics test that allows FDRS to continually talk to any and all busses someone would want to. By narrowing it down to a couple busses where issues are, wiring could continually be jiggled / manipulated to find the 'easier' faults -- but only if they're aware the tool is there. Other issues stem from ford not doing more with the diagnostic data they siphon up. They're a tech company that's failing to understand such. They should be analyzing all of the data from dealers continually, particularly when techs go on a module replacement spree. The process for diagnosing something should be a moving bar that can differ day-to-day as each new case and remedy are fed back into the diagnostic algo. They could even take it up a notch giving different procedures to different techs working on similar issues to even refine the process.

Tech isn't the issue, poor implementation of it is.

 

[Snakebitten]

Just a guess.
Software software software

Which would include what FDRS is, as you mentioned. But I think onboard diagnostics should/will become much more sophisticated than just the vast increase we are seeing in the current DTC library.
(have you scrolled through the pages upon pages of DTC codes for the Powerboost?)

Currently the Factory Service Manual is still using the "legacy" method of listing the DTC, and then providing a sometimes very lengthy pinpoint test procedure. I've read a few and thought to myself that I'm reading a procedure that I have seen little evidence that the average Dealership mechanic/technician would do at his current job.
And as someone else mentioned earlier, I don't think Ford even gives the dealership the autonomy to decide to perform the pinpoint test procedure that is clearly provided by Ford?

I think necessity is the mother of the changes the industry will inevitably experience. Those diagnostic tools cited, that need to be developed, will run the SOFTWARE that can perform those current tedious (legacy/manual) pinpoint procedures. Quickly and efficiently, without requiring the technician to know how or why the tool works.

These trucks aren't magic voodoo machines. They are an ensemble of components with admittedly a daunting array of harnesses and connectors. If someone had the time, which nobody at a dealership does, the OP's Explorer could be diagnosed successfully. The issue is almost certainly a very finite component.

 

[Newman]

I have a feeling that it's not the tech in the vehicles, it's the wiring. Modern manufacturing of electronics is rock solid. The machines that put circuit boards together are amazing to watch with the precision and speed they assemble things. Furthermore the components on them are also more than capable of providing decades of life.

Take modern computer hardware in general. There's thousands of possible part combinations and they just work. The issue for someone like ford is they might buy module A from a company while not negotiating full rights to the underlying code. Hell they might not even have the means to do anything to it due to locked bootloaders or obfuscated code (the lines of code are ran though a process that turns them into nonsense for the simple fact of thwarting someone from making sense of it).

Furthermore there's diagnostic tools in FDRS that I'd bet 90% of techs don't even know exist. Take for instance the bus diagnostics test that allows FDRS to continually talk to any and all busses someone would want to. By narrowing it down to a couple busses where issues are, wiring could continually be jiggled / manipulated to find the 'easier' faults -- but only if they're aware the tool is there. Other issues stem from ford not doing more with the diagnostic data they siphon up. They're a tech company that's failing to understand such. They should be analyzing all of the data from dealers continually, particularly when techs go on a module replacement spree. The process for diagnosing something should be a moving bar that can differ day-to-day as each new case and remedy are fed back into the diagnostic algo. They could even take it up a notch giving different procedures to different techs working on similar issues to even refine the process.

Tech isn't the issue, poor implementation of it is.

I agree! When it's happens it's literally every fault there is I'm pretty sure. And no dash and no screen locks. Gauges. Nothing works. But really when the vehicle shuts off while going down the road that's when it becomes totally unacceptable. I can get in my 1994 f150 and turn the key and it's going to start and its not going to shut off until I turn the key off. Something has to change fast!

 

[Grafx36510]

I have a feeling that it's not the tech in the vehicles, it's the wiring. Modern manufacturing of electronics is rock solid. The machines that put circuit boards together are amazing to watch with the precision and speed they assemble things. Furthermore the components on them are also more than capable of providing decades of life.

Take modern computer hardware in general. There's thousands of possible part combinations and they just work. The issue for someone like ford is they might buy module A from a company while not negotiating full rights to the underlying code. Hell they might not even have the means to do anything to it due to locked bootloaders or obfuscated code (the lines of code are ran though a process that turns them into nonsense for the simple fact of thwarting someone from making sense of it).

Furthermore there's diagnostic tools in FDRS that I'd bet 90% of techs don't even know exist. Take for instance the bus diagnostics test that allows FDRS to continually talk to any and all busses someone would want to. By narrowing it down to a couple busses where issues are, wiring could continually be jiggled / manipulated to find the 'easier' faults -- but only if they're aware the tool is there. Other issues stem from ford not doing more with the diagnostic data they siphon up. They're a tech company that's failing to understand such. They should be analyzing all of the data from dealers continually, particularly when techs go on a module replacement spree. The process for diagnosing something should be a moving bar that can differ day-to-day as each new case and remedy are fed back into the diagnostic algo. They could even take it up a notch giving different procedures to different techs working on similar issues to even refine the process.

Tech isn't the issue, poor implementation of it is.

You make a lot of very valid points. But, we as consumers, are stuck with the ‘luck of the draw’ when it comes to having any issues serviced. With vehicles being sold and service provided by independent franchises, how much blame should the manufacturer receive. You have, on many occasions, and rightfully so, touted Tesla’s forward looking approach to modern vehicle manufacturing, sales and service. There are no middlemen. Ford is insulated by the dealer networks own design.

Why should we let the individual dealers off the hook. Ford, for better or worse, is separated from the end consumer by the franchised dealer network who is responsible for service by their own demand. They got their empire and now they get to live with it and all it entails, including service after the sale.

I’m not saying Ford doesn’t share blame, they do because they designed and engineered the product. But since you and I are not their customer (the dealer is) why don’t we put the blame where it squarely belongs which is the entity purchasing the vehicle and reselling it.

I’ve read most of your posts and learned quite a bit from them, however, in this case, it definitely seems like a dealer apathy issue.

 

[jeepin95]

I have a 2022 f150 that has been great but I also have a 2022 ford explorer that is a train wreck. Looking for advice this is the 1st time I have been involved in a buy back. Vehicle is 1 year old almost exactly been towed to dealership 5 times total of over 80 days in the shop (and counting). Network communication error each time with 15-21 faults each time. Vehicle shuts off going down road ect. It's not good. How do I get the best deal out of this situation? Thanks. I am a little worried we are going to get screwed bc we got 9k off msrp when we ordered this explorer and if we can't get that now it's going to cost alot to get almost the same vehicle..

I'm not sure if you have already but look at the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act and see if you can find an attorney that specializes in that. Back in 2014 I got a new vehicle and it was towed to the shop the same day I put the license plate on, then more after that. I found an attorney that specialized and reviewed my records for free, sent a letter to the manufacturer, asked if I wanted a new one or buy back. I loved the vehicle and just wanted the same thing. None were in inventory and the model year was done so they custom ordered the new model year with the same features. A few months later it arrived and I drove the old one with 15k miles in, signed some papers and drove the year newer one home. It was a headache but it was worth it. I paid nothing, manufacturer paid the lawyer fees as part of the settlement.

 

[Davexxxx]

This doesn't really help the OP, or anyone else who has had a bad experience but I was struck by the number of the responses to the airport parking thread, that considered it unnecessary to take any precautions for long term parking.

We know these things are electricity hogs, we know they have an odd charging strategy. We know that often, certain glitches disappear, or get worse, depending on SoC. We devise workarounds and pre-emptive strategies and yet somehow, a good number say problem? What problem?

A normally silent majority, representing the millions that go out the door, rather than the few that come back?

More than one has fixed their troubles by seating loose fuses.

Such a simple thing and conspicuously assessable, compared to the hundreds of other connection points..

Anyway, that thread struck me, perhaps more so, because I may have stumbled onto a fix of a problem that recently came up. Black screen and or reboots. After doing a pre-emptive maintenance charge, it hasn't happened since.

 

[Rockman5159]

I have a 2022 f150 that has been great but I also have a 2022 ford explorer that is a train wreck. Looking for advice this is the 1st time I have been involved in a buy back. Vehicle is 1 year old almost exactly been towed to dealership 5 times total of over 80 days in the shop (and counting). Network communication error each time with 15-21 faults each time. Vehicle shuts off going down road ect. It's not good. How do I get the best deal out of this situation? Thanks. I am a little worried we are going to get screwed bc we got 9k off msrp when we ordered this explorer and if we can't get that now it's going to cost alot to get almost the same vehicle..

Inovation and automation has bought us a long way as far as convienence and performance, however these two "words" is going to cripple us as a nation. WE have become too complacement in allowing computers and electronics to make our lives easier. I really hope you get your buy back resolved in your favor. Good Luck my friend

 

[Henfield]

I'd love to see Dealer Techs and factory engineers swap rolls for a month....They'd both learn a shit load.....

What would I do....Well I came close having issued a lemon law on a car I got for my wife. If it had come to buy back, I would have taken another car of the same brand. Wife likes her Volvos. You can figure out resale and trade in values easily. Another approach is the cents per mile depreciation.

 

[Newman]

I'm not sure if you have already but look at the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act and see if you can find an attorney that specializes in that. Back in 2014 I got a new vehicle and it was towed to the shop the same day I put the license plate on, then more after that. I found an attorney that specialized and reviewed my records for free, sent a letter to the manufacturer, asked if I wanted a new one or buy back. I loved the vehicle and just wanted the same thing. None were in inventory and the model year was done so they custom ordered the new model year with the same features. A few months later it arrived and I drove the old one with 15k miles in, signed some papers and drove the year newer one home. It was a headache but it was worth it. I paid nothing, manufacturer paid the lawyer fees as part of the settlement.

Thank you for the info! That is what we want to have happen to us in just order a vehicle and exchange when it comes in! Dealer right now has 0 new explorers and we did custom order the one we have now.

 

[Chili]

I have a 2022 f150 that has been great but I also have a 2022 ford explorer that is a train wreck. Looking for advice this is the 1st time I have been involved in a buy back. Vehicle is 1 year old almost exactly been towed to dealership 5 times total of over 80 days in the shop (and counting). Network communication error each time with 15-21 faults each time. Vehicle shuts off going down road ect. It's not good. How do I get the best deal out of this situation? Thanks. I am a little worried we are going to get screwed bc we got 9k off msrp when we ordered this explorer and if we can't get that now it's going to cost alot to get almost the same vehicle..

They go by state buyback laws and some states are better then others. Here in MN I lost no value for mileage and I had 20k. So the deal can be decent or fantastic. I got full original MSRP and extra cash towards a new Ford. They also paid for taxes, fees and license on the new truck.

 

[Newman]

They go by state buyback laws and some states are better then others. Here in MN I lost no value for mileage and I had 20k. So the deal can be decent or fantastic. I got full original MSRP and extra cash towards a new Ford. They also paid for taxes, fees and license on the new truck.

Yep that sounds really good! I'm from Iowa only about 30 minutes from MN! Hopefully our laws are similar. I have read about the lemon law in Iowa but I guess I just still don't know what to expect exactly. Hopefully I get MSRP and taxes and fees towards a different vehicle and I'll be happy!

 

[Pierre.Granger]

Thanks for the reply.

I've always wanted to be able to follow one of these vehicles AFTER it was bought back.
Something happens to it. It doesn't go to the crusher. And it can't be a functional vehicle for its next owner until/unless the malady is solved.
Assuming it somehow does get successfully diagnosed and repaired, what was different about that process and the failed process you have experienced?

Regardless, I hope you get a solution that doesn't sting too much financially. If it's the same dealership you got such a good deal on originally, maybe they will be fair with you this time around.

My buyback ended up repaired and sold in another state. Which led me to wonder why they didn’t repair it for me.

 

[notabot]

My buyback ended up repaired and sold in another state. Which led me to wonder why they didn’t repair it for me.

Probably wasn't fixed!

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