What grade fuel for PowerBoost?

[Snakebitten]

I didn't look closely but we purchased a Powerboost for our aircraft cleaning crew and it IS considerably lighter than my Platinum based on the additional Cargo Capacity sticker on the door jamb. But I would be shocked to find that it is heavier than the Raptor.

It could very well be, but nowhere near 700lbs. Of course it also couldn't possibly "hook up" with those silly little base tires either.

That truck is an AMAZING value for its MSRP and the guys that are using it are SO proud of it that they won't let anyone sit on the cloth seats or get in with dirty shoes. It nice to see them appreciate what otherwise looks like an ordinary white fleet vehicle.

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[AutonomousHybridF150]

Here is a Dyno Graph with a 2019 EB with Premium (no tune) vs Premium with a Tune. The lower power numbers are the premium runs with 0 tune. Just Ford’s OEM tune.

2019 EcoBoost Dyno Numbers on 93 Octane with OEM Tune:
351 HP and 378 TQ

15% Correction For Drive Train Loss:
403HP & 434TQ

2021 Powerboost Running 87 Octane:
This Powerboost was running on 87 octane and completed this dyno run below.

Powerboost Dyno Numbers:
406HP and 497TQ Max on the first run on 87 octane.

15% Correction For Drive Train Loss:
467HP & 571TQ on 87 Octane.

I sent TFTL an email asking them to revisit this dyno pull using premium and no tune. Included the thread and their old article dynoing the powerboost on 87 Octane.

Link Below:
http://tfltruck.com/2021/01/new-202...oes-on-the-dyno-puts-down-impressive-numbers/

Maybe we will get a response

 

[Lippy]

No doubt you can get more power from a shop tune vs the Ford tune, but here is another way to think about it.

Ford tune: The engine will advance the timing and put out more power with higher octane gas, as shown by C&D and several others. But it will only increase the power up to a point and ultimately limit output. So you should get more power with 91 vs 87, but it won't be unlimited. Ford wants to have an engine that performs well for marketing purposes, but will temper that with their view of strength of internal components, reliability, warranty claims over the long-term, emissions, etc. Big car companies these days typically spend several hundred million, if not more than a billion dollars to develop a new engine. They have facilities, teams of engineers, and data that isn't available to anyone else and know what they are doing.

Shop tune: The engine will advance the timing and put out more power with higher octane gas. It may or may not limit the output, as shops usually view the Ford tune as overly conservative and believe the internal components "can take it," based on small samples sizes of anecdotal data, with the trade-offs potentially being emissions and reliability. Of course, the limit will be higher than Ford's, or they may not limit output at all. Maybe the engines can take it and maybe they can't. I don't know. It is easy to crank the daylights out of turbo boost and magnify the output of the engine. It's hard to do it and maintain reliability and meet emissions.

If some people want to take that chance with a small shop of guys who sometimes can barely keep their doors open and usually don't have engineering experience or resources, and also potentially void your warranty, then go ahead. I *genuinely* wish you the best of luck and the most fun with your truck. But it is not a trade-off I choose to make, especially because I rarely floor the truck anyway, and I have other vehicles that are far faster and better performing anyway.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

No doubt you can get more power from a shop tune vs the Ford tune, but here is another way to think about it.

Ford tune: The engine will advance the timing and put out more power with higher octane gas, as shown by C&D and several others. But it will only increase the power up to a point and ultimately limit output. So you should get more power with 91 vs 87, but it won't be unlimited. Ford wants to have an engine that performs well for marketing purposes, but will temper that with their view of strength of internal components, reliability, warranty claims over the long-term, emissions, etc. Big car companies these days typically spend several hundred million, if not more than a billion dollars to develop a new engine. They have facilities, teams of engineers, and data that isn't available to anyone else and know what they are doing.

Shop tune: The engine will advance the timing and put out more power with higher octane gas. It may or may not limit the output, as shops usually view the Ford tune as overly conservative and believe the internal components "can take it," based on small samples sizes of anecdotal data, with the trade-offs potentially being emissions and reliability. Of course, the limit will be higher than Ford's, or they may not limit output at all. Maybe the engines can take it and maybe they can't. I don't know. It is easy to crank the daylights out of turbo boost and magnify the output of the engine. It's hard to do it and maintain reliability and meet emissions.

If some people want to take that chance with a small shop of guys who sometimes can barely keep their doors open and usually don't have engineering experience or resources, and also potentially void your warranty, then go ahead. I *genuinely* wish you the best of luck and the most fun with your truck. But it is not a trade-off I choose to make, especially because I rarely floor the truck anyway, and I have other vehicles that are far faster and better performing anyway.

You’ve got me all wrong. I run premium. But in 26,000 miles on my powerboost, I’ve run 2 tanks through it. Did it seem sportier and quicker to respond after the 2nd tank, yes.

But we are talking raw HP numbers actually making a difference with premium.

Im saying that you average joe, can’t see visible difference in 87 to 93 on a EB motor.

Im searching for a baseline 87 octane pull, but this video below demonstrates how shortly after re-fueling with 93 doesn’t net a big change in the 0-60 times. This is all I’m trying to tell everyone.

It’s going to take a tank or 2 to show the improved timing and give more performance.



I know this video is far from scientific, and was over different terrains, but this is all I’m trying to tell everyone. It’s not a big enough difference to put the premium. This guy videoed the runs and you can time time yourself, and it appears the truck runs the same with 87 arms it does with 93.

The truck was full with 93 vs being 5-10 gallons with the 87, but the guy stated it was cooler on the day with the full tank of 93 runs, so that would increase air charge density and give more power to compensate for the full tank weight.

 

[scrming]

So…. Tuning the 2021 F-150 PowerBoost… from what I’m reading and hearing, personally I think it’s going to be quite a while before we see tunes for the PB…

but there maybe another option if you are looking for improved performance. On my old F150 EB I was running a JMS BoostMax and it was great!!! It is a piggy back system so no transmission changes just vastly improved HP/Torque. Best things is no ECU breadcrumbs! Simply unplug it and zero traces it was there!

I was skeptical but tried it and was amazed! Here is the dyno! This is on 93 octane with the system switched off and with it turned up to about 90%

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Another non scientific towing comparison with 87 vs 93.

 

[imnuts]

Shop tune: The engine will advance the timing and put out more power with higher octane gas. It may or may not limit the output, as shops usually view the Ford tune as overly conservative and believe the internal components "can take it," based on small samples sizes of anecdotal data, with the trade-offs potentially being emissions and reliability. Of course, the limit will be higher than Ford's, or they may not limit output at all. Maybe the engines can take it and maybe they can't. I don't know. It is easy to crank the daylights out of turbo boost and magnify the output of the engine. It's hard to do it and maintain reliability and meet emissions.

To go with this, you also have to think about the drivetrain as a whole. Just because you can get more power from the engine safely doesn't mean the rest of the drivetrain components can also support the increased power. The clutch/torque converter, gears, transfer case, differentials, axles, etc. also need to be taken into consideration. Then, you have all of that power, can the brakes hold up and slow you down safely if there were an engine run-away condition now? It is great, but a lot goes into it.

Also, with regards to tuning, dyno tuning is great for numbers, but you also have to consider drivability. If the tuning gives you more HP & Torque, but you go from making that power at say 1000-2000 RPM now to 4000-5000 RPM, that isn't helpful to normal DD duty. There is more to consider when getting a tune than just the raw HP/Torque data and you should also look at where those are changing across the power band.

 

[scrming]

To go with this, you also have to think about the drivetrain as a whole. Just because you can get more power from the engine safely doesn't mean the rest of the drivetrain components can also support the increased power. The clutch/torque converter, gears, transfer case, differentials, axles, etc. also need to be taken into consideration. Then, you have all of that power, can the brakes hold up and slow you down safely if there were an engine run-away condition now? It is great, but a lot goes into it.

Also, with regards to tuning, dyno tuning is great for numbers, but you also have to consider drivability. If the tuning gives you more HP & Torque, but you go from making that power at say 1000-2000 RPM now to 4000-5000 RPM, that isn't helpful to normal DD duty. There is more to consider when getting a tune than just the raw HP/Torque data and you should also look at where those are changing across the power band.

That’s the great thing about EB tuning. You get big gains low in the RPM range!

 

[Snakebitten]

I'm in no way suggesting anyone should risk their warranty on this obviously very complex drivetrain of the Powerboost, and honestly I don't think I would even if they were tunable at this point. But I can assure you that the 2017-2020 3.5Ecoboost motors have been thoroughly researched and developed amongst the tuning industry and several of the most well respected tuners now have lots of happy customers with years and thousands of miles tuned. There's even quite a few using "Tow Tunes" to not only improve power and shifting strategy but also to address better heat management with more aggressive fan management. (everything on these trucks is tunable)

I myself drove my previous truck 3 years and 7 months almost entirely while tuned with ~100 RWHP increase over stock.

Keep in mind that these trucks are engineered to be under considerably more load than they are when we are running around empty. And you do NOT have to abuse your drivetrain just because you do have more power on tap. You can drive a Ferrari like a Chevy Impala.

I'm an old man who wasted a lot of money and time racing motorcycles and dirt cars and finally learned that being smoooooth is a lot less taxing on the drivetrain. Speed and power wasn't what broke things, but things like hole shots and launches are the usual breakers.

Still, I fault no one for being a little queasy about messing with their fancy new Powerboost. Besides, ~700lbs of torque FROM factory? We live in remarkable times! That's just crazy in an oem F150

 

[Lippy]

If the tuning gives you more HP & Torque, but you go from making that power at say 1000-2000 RPM now to 4000-5000 RPM, that isn't helpful to normal DD duty. There is more to consider when getting a tune than just the raw HP/Torque data and you should also look at where those are changing across the power band.

It doesn't usually work this way. Trucks engines are almost always optimized for low-end torque vs. high-end power, because they need to tow. To do this, you make the engine "oversquare" and optimize the cam accordingly. When you simply crank the waste gate pressure, which is what tunes usually do, you don't change the torque curve. You just move it up a bit. So it will still be a low-end torquey engine, but that peak torque number will be higher.

 

[Lippy]

I'm an old man who wasted a lot of money and time racing motorcycles and dirt cars and finally learned that being smoooooth is a lot less taxing on the drivetrain.

We call that Mechanical Sympathy. Some people just don't have it.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Ok here is a AAA write up on the dyno between 87 and 93 octane on a 2017 EB F-150:

HP & TQ are basically identical with a small variation on the static test, which would be similar to towing heavy. The reduction in static power on the 87 is due to the engine getting heat soaked, taking advantage of 91 octane at best.

The dyno charts prove the difference between 87 and 93 is negligible.

These charts prove putting 93 in an EB or Powerboost truck isn’t going to give you 20 extra HP.

The HO motor gets its power from extra tuning and turbo availability, while using the premium fuel requirement. If you take that premium fuel away, I would expect a 20 HP drop.

Just because the HO motor got a 20 HP drop, doesn’t meant the non-HO motor is going to gain 20 HP with premium.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

What does the above prove?

It proves you only get a few extra HP for longer during heavy usage scenarios.

Towing Heavy
Drag Strip Racing

So if you are putting premium just for making you feel better go ahead and do it, but in the real world the difference isn’t that noticeable. Dyno graphs are a perfect place for this. And they are indisputable in cases like this.

 

[scrming]

It doesn't usually work this way. Trucks engines are almost always optimized for low-end torque vs. high-end power, because they need to tow. To do this, you make the engine "oversquare" and optimize the cam accordingly. When you simply crank the waste gate pressure, which is what tunes usually do, you don't change the torque curve. You just move it up a bit. So it will still be a low-end torquey engine, but that peak torque number will be higher.

Once upon a time I graphed the stock boost psi vs tuned. The stock boost came on very linearly like a centrifugal supercharger. With a tune the boost came on much more quickly like you expect with a turbo. My thought is Ford wanted a very slow smooth power delivery… like a small V8

 

[Snakebitten]

We call that Mechanical Sympathy. Some people just don't have it.

I'm going out to the barn and I'm going to quote what you said about me to everything from my chainsaw to my Porsche. "did Yaw hear that? I am Mechanically Sympathetic so yaw have no reason to give me any trouble" ?

All kidding aside, you are dead right because I didn't get it for a long time and blamed Yamaha or KTM or GM or....
Called a lot of things "junk" when it broke.

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