What grade fuel for PowerBoost?

[scrming]

Finally…someone that understands octane and the effects thereof, good explanation. You’d be surprised as to the folks I come across that think the higher the octane the more power they gain (without adjusting the tune). Octane puts the fire out folks ?

the 3.5 EcoBoost will detect the higher octane and will basically self-tune itself to take advantage of the higher octane and will in fact make more power. The question is the extra power worth is the extra cost of premium?

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[AutonomousHybridF150]

the 3.5 EcoBoost will detect the higher octane and will basically self-tune itself to take advantage of the higher octane and will in fact make more power. The question is the extra power worth is the extra cost of premium?

And I’ve been trying to explain to the opposition that using 93 octane in a powerboost truck only gives a fraction of the actual potential available, because Ford tunes super rich and retarded timing, so you’re only seeing 10-20% of what is actually possible and safe if a proper dyno tune was completed.

One of the posters cited an article with a limited F150 with the HO Raptor motor (requires premium) where they fueled it with regular and dynoed a 20 HP drop from 93 to 87.

But then I tried to explain that the Raptor HO motor is made for premium vs. the 87 octane requirement of the normal EB motor. I tried to explain that everyone knows the HO motor is slightly bigger turbos (which are present on the normal EB motors now) and the actual fuel maps and timing maps have a lot of safe headroom for that guy that forgets to change oil for 25k miles, and gets the most out of a set of plugs (changing spark plugs only once the electrode is gone.

It has been common knowledge that OEM tunes are always very safe, and always leave room for improvement, but yet some folks here feel that putting premium in a Normal EB is going to net the same gains as dyno tuning for 93 octane.

I tried to explain that octane makes it explode less, and so more 93 octane without a re-tune is what I have stated is “a waste of money”.

While I have been aware of this since my 2013 EB SHO, but I remaining the opposition that the 365HP in the Taurus was with premium 93 octane. But then I pointed out that a tune on that same 3.5 EB motor actually does gain 40-50 HP.

I think the oppositions response was “I’m not gonna respond all of that“, so they either never read it, or they just didn’t have a response.

 

[scrming]

I'm still running regular without any issues. It's a truck and Ford hasn't produced a street performance truck since the 90's as far as I'm concerned. I guess 93 helps "performance" but it's still a slug as far as I'm concerned so why bother throwing money away just to drive around. The only time I would use 93 would be towing my boat more than a few miles. I ran 93 in my 2016 F150 King Ranch 3.5l Ecoboost when towing my enclosed car trailer from Florida to Michigan and back. But for normal driving 87 is all this truck will see. To me, a 5 something second 0-60 is a yawner.

I wouldn’t call 13.8 in a full size, crew cab pickup a slug! Sure it’s not ground shaking fast but for what it is it certainly gets up and moves! ?

read this review/remarks about the 2001 F150 SVT Lightning… which definitely was considered a performance truck


“SVT performance gurus have massaged and coaxed a spine tingling 380 horsepower and 450 pound-feet of torque from this baby. That’s a jump of 20 horsepower and 10 pound-feet of torque over the previous Lightning.

Internally, the Lightning’s power plant remains unchanged from last year, as does the 4R100 4-speed automatic transmission. So that extra boost in power comes from design changes to the air inlet system and manifold, and a more efficient intercooler. SVT engineers have also “shortened” the Lightning’s rear axle ratio to 3.73:1 from 3.55:1. And that means 0 to 60 romps in a quicker 5.4 seconds, and quarter mile blasts of 13.9 seconds at 101 mph!”

I’ve run 13.8 at the track. Was a hot humid day! No doubt on a cool Fall day with good air it will probably go close to 13.6. I’ve also seen as low as 5.2 seconds on the 0-60…. keep in mind this is with a truck that weighs like a 1,000 pounds more than the SVT Lightning. 1,000 pounds is roughly a second in the 1/4 mile…

sure the PowerBoost isn’t fast… but the other thing to remember spinning ain’t winning! I watched a guy at the track the other day with a Challenger Hellcat. Guy literally had zero traction on street tires. I love the fact I can drive to the track (90 minutes away) and just run! No swapping tire or anything. When I’m done just get in and drive home. Ive only done test and tune but the truck is very consistent and should do well in the brackets. ?

 

[scrming]

And I’ve been trying to explain to the opposition that using 93 octane in a powerboost truck only gives a fraction of the actual potential available, because Ford tunes super rich and retarded timing, so you’re only seeing 10-20% of what is actually possible and safe if a proper dyno tune was completed.

One of the posters cited an article with a limited F150 with the HO Raptor motor (requires premium) where they fueled it with regular and dynoed a 20 HP drop from 93 to 87.

But then I tried to explain that the Raptor HO motor is made for premium vs. the 87 octane requirement of the normal EB motor. I tried to explain that everyone knows the HO motor is slightly bigger turbos (which are present on the normal EB motors now) and the actual fuel maps and timing maps have a lot of safe headroom for that guy that forgets to change oil for 25k miles, and gets the most out of a set of plugs (changing spark plugs only once the electrode is gone.

It has been common knowledge that OEM tunes are always very safe, and always leave room for improvement, but yet some folks here feel that putting premium in a Normal EB is going to net the same gains as dyno tuning for 93 octane.

I tried to explain that octane makes it explode less, and so more 93 octane without a re-tune is what I have stated is “a waste of money”.

While I have been aware of this since my 2013 EB SHO, but I remaining the opposition that the 365HP in the Taurus was with premium 93 octane. But then I pointed out that a tune on that same 3.5 EB motor actually does gain 40-50 HP.

I think the oppositions response was “I’m not gonna respond all of that“, so they either never read it, or they just didn’t have a response.

you said that running premium makes NO DIFFERENCE unless you are tuned for it. That is what you said! Period! That is completely incorrect! The EB will make more power running 93 vs 87. It is up the the individual to decide if it is worth the extra cost

No where did I ever say simply running premium would give you the same results as an aftermarket tune!

 

[scrming]

Here’s the gains I seen on my 2011 Flex with a Livernois tune. Flex ran 12.7s @ 109 (IIRC). Ran events from New Jersey and Maryland to Oklahoma.

 

[Snakebitten]

570lbs of torque is no slug in my book. Personal opinion of course. I consider it definitely a performance capable truck.

And no offense but Ford built "tune adjust" into the Ecoboost and it can and will make more power on 93 than it will on 87.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Some people that buy F-150s dont perform maintenance like the others present on this forum. My uncle is the worst, because he only performs maintenance when it breaks. My dad literally performed all these things on my uncles Ford vehicles because they didn’t perform any maintenance ever, and then he comes to my dad with “a constant missfire” which we discover it because all the spark plug electrodes wore away because he didn’t change them for 150k miles.

Meaning that an OEM tune 87 or 93 is tuned for “that guy” and is in no way optimized for the guy that changes oil at 3,000 miles regularly and changes plugs at regular 50-70k mile intervals.

You must realize that too many normal people (people that don’t understand why Ferrari clutches get burned up during easy soft in town driving) drive their vehicle until it breaks, not understanding why it broke, and then they bring it to “Buck and a Truck Auto Repair) and Buck sells them on a “tune up” and doesn’t fix the actual issue because they really don’t know what is wrong.

Tried explaining something I know is a fact. Glad others have recognized what I am speaking about. Because if you run premium in your EB, you really need to get a proper dyno tune to take advantage of the advanced timing possible with 93, as well as, leaning out the fuel curves enough for the extra power.

When you run extra timing you get pre-ignition. When running 93 you can advance the timing more to make higher power levels. When running 93 you can lean the fuel mixture out more. When running 93 you can run higher boost levels without pre-ignition occurring.

If you create the proper conditions in a combustion chamber, you will find that you can grenade a motor with or without knock sensors. Preignition can blow a motor up if the right conditions occur, and regardless of safeties built in by Ford, this can all happen so fast that the motor comes apart before it has a chance to figure out knock is occurring.

Spun bearings, cracked pistons, holes in pistons, etc can all happen if you don’t maintain your oil, spark plugs, fuel system, etc.

Dyno tunes are reserved for those folks that are anal about their truck maintenance. Which is basically everyone in this forum right now. If you maintain your truck to a T, then you should spring and get the tune to go with your 93 octane fuel. Then you will truly appreciate what Ford has done to these drivetrains and the 93 octane you are filling up with.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

I just consulted with my Ford Truck Enthusiast tuner friend, and he confirmed the following is true for the 17-20 EB motors.

Factory 2020 3.5 EB gains with dyno tune only on regular 87 octane: 70HP

Factory 2020 3.5 EB gains with dyno tune only on premium 93 octane: 115HP

This is a 70HP gain using the same 87 octane fuel. This is an even greater difference when using 93 octane with a total gain of 115HP.

The above numbers are never going to be realized simply by changing to 93 octane. Getting 115 extra HP with premium is well worth the hit taken by fueling up with 36 gallons of premium.

All I’m trying to say is: if you can get 115HP more with a dyno tune for 93 octane, and then you consider only getting 10-20HP extra in Your NON-Tuned running 93 octane, you quickly realize that OEM tunes are SUPER conservative and have so much left over in the way of performance gains.

I feel that anyone here would agree that 115HP is worth the 20 extra dollars each time you fill up. However, simply changing to 93 would be a waste of money compared to a real dyno tune.

These are dyno jet numbers BTW, not Mustang dyno numbers.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Here’s the gains I seen on my 2011 Flex with a Livernois tune. Flex ran 12.7s @ 109 (IIRC). Ran events from New Jersey and Maryland to Oklahoma.

We’re you on Ecoboost performance forum with that flex? Seem to remember the guy got rid of the flex because the tranny couldn’t handle the power levels, and no one had a proper rebuild kit for that tranny.

Is that you?

 

[Snakebitten]

I agree that the oem tuning tables come far short of extracting the full potential of 93 octane. I've had personal experience with tunes from GearHead and 5* with octane-learning tunes and octane dedicated tunes. And since Apples to Apples would be most fair, my GearHead octane learning tune could produce 430RWHP on 93 while the Factory calibration was closer to 330RWHP.

Yes, a 100 HP difference. And THAT I believe is the point you are making.

But that still doesn't mean that the oem octane learning calibration doesn't take advantage of higher octane and produce more power. Albeit very conservativly compared to the tuning gurus who know where Ford left the low hanging fruit.

Like many debates this has turned into a either/or absolute. But it's just not an either or absolute.

I will say though that the vast majority of drivers will NEVER experience or utilize the increased portion of HP/TQ that is available on 93. Except perhaps those making big torque demands while towing. The Ecoboost IS a torque demand based calibration and towing can definitely ask for all she's got.

 

[scrming]

I just consulted with my Ford Truck Enthusiast tuner friend, and he confirmed the following is true for the 17-20 EB motors.

Factory 2020 3.5 EB gains with dyno tune only on regular 87 octane: 70HP

Factory 2020 3.5 EB gains with dyno tune only on premium 93 octane: 115HP

This is a 70HP gain using the same 87 octane fuel. This is an even greater difference when using 93 octane with a total gain of 115HP.

The above numbers are never going to be realized simply by changing to 93 octane. Getting 115 extra HP with premium is well worth the hit taken by fueling up with 36 gallons of premium.

All I’m trying to say is: if you can get 115HP more with a dyno tune for 93 octane, and then you consider only getting 10-20HP extra in Your NON-Tuned running 93 octane, you quickly realize that OEM tunes are SUPER conservative and have so much left over in the way of performance gains.

I feel that anyone here would agree that 115HP is worth the 20 extra dollars each time you fill up. However, simply changing to 93 would be a waste of money compared to a real dyno tune.

These are dyno jet numbers BTW, not Mustang dyno numbers.

im not saying an aftermarket market tune won’t make a lot more power. That’s not my point at all. I’m simply saying that with the stock calibration a 3.5 EB will make more power with 93 vs 87. Your original comment was that with the stock calibration the 3.5 EB will make the SAME power whether it has 87 or 93 in the tank.

I was on the Flex forums. Flex was still going strong with 100,000 miles when I decided to get something else. Goofed around with a Focus ST for awhile. Then the 3.7 Mustang…

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

im not saying an aftermarket market tune won’t make a lot more power. That’s not my point at all. I’m simply saying that with the stock calibration a 3.5 EB will make more power with 93 vs 87. Your original comment was that with the stock calibration the 3.5 EB will make the SAME power whether it has 87 or 93 in the tank.

I was on the Flex forums. Flex was still going strong with 100,000 miles when I decided to get something else. Goofed around with a Focus ST for awhile. Then the 3.7 Mustang…

I would like to continue debate on the topic, but I would like to kindly request that you refrain from quoting my original post incorrectly.

I never said such things. The below underlined quotes are exactly what I stated in key points of my original post on this thread. Please reference these quotes when arguing in the future, because this is actually what I said.

**”If the Powerboost runs 87 without significant knock retard occurring, then running 90 or 93 octane without a re-tune is going to be a waste of money.”

**”Fun Fact: You need to run about a half to full tank of 93 octane through the engine before you are going to get the possible extra timing to make additional power.”

**”Take it from someone that has driven tuned vehicles that require 93 octane or else they grenade from detonation, if you are filling up your F-150 with premium 93 octane, you are paying for extra anti-knock compound which is not being utilized enough to justify the extra .50 - 1.00 per gallon that it costs.”

**”Running high octane fuel is a waste in a non-tuned F-150. I wouldn’t run higher than mid grade when towing, and would never run 93 unless I was going to the race track.”

I concluded my original post with, I wouldn’t run higher than mid grade when towing (because ford’s OEM tunes are going to ceiling out at what 91 can do).

And then I went on to agree that the extra HP can be gained with 93, so the only reason you would need to do that is if you went to the race track. But not when towing 1000 miles, so I would only use what Ford says we should to improve performance towing or hot weather, which is mid grade.

Only if a tenth of a second mattered would I would gladly spend 20 dollars + per tank. Then Yes I’ll throw a few tanks of 93 in it before I go to the track, which I’ve done before in 2013 and newer EB vehicles. So I know there is a performance gain, but it is so insignificant it is a waste of money.

93 octane for 115HP is not a waste of money.

93 octane for 10-20HP extra is a waste of money when you compare it to the above statement.

But in reality, UNLESS it was dyno tuned or something equivalent. Because a dyno tune gets you over 100HP, because 93 octane makes an engine capable of handling the following: (higher boost levels, aggressive spark, and leaner fuel mixtures, better transmission shift points) because Ford is never going to be aggressive with their tunes. They know that some guy is going to run their EB F150 on WOT completely overloaded with 20k lbs towing cross country. And that old guy doesn’t know a thing about EB engines or how they work, so his trick just keep on going because a dyno tune would have burned something up.

93 is capable of that extra 100HP+ in that EB motor, with those turbos, so paying for gasoline that gets you 10-20HP is a waste once you see the true potential of premium fuel and custom tuning.

So, all I was trying to say originally is that if we are putt putting around getting 24 MPG or towing light duty trailers to the boat launch, it would be a complete waste of money to run 93 octane through these trucks. The dyno tuned equivalent truck running 93 would gain over 100HP, which is a very significant increase and much more worth the 20 dollars extra per fill up.

This is all I am saying really. Much better can 93 make an EB Motor if re-calibrated properly.

 

[Snakebitten]

Autonomous, I assure you that I have read what you have stated very closely and that's why I've stayed completely away from declaring that we disagree. Because we actually don't.

Except for one thing... Lol

We can't tune these 21's (yet)

So you have the opinion that the value equation for $/HP increase on the oem calibration isn't worth the additional co$t for 93.

And while it is likely that most folks would have a value equation closer to yours than they would mine, I'm just one of those fellas that is comfortable with buying the additional potential at the pump.

My financial advisor would roll his eyes and tell me THAT'S what is wrong with me and why I won't ever be rich. He's probably right too. ?

But I'm an old geezer and it's too late to get me to be that frugal. I'm having too much fun with my toys. And this Powerboost IS a toy in disguise as a truck, which is a right for every Texan to have at least one of.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

What no one has really pointed out yet is the fact that the powerboost engine has combined HP & TQ higher than the advertised 430HP & 575TQ. There is no way a 800LB heavier Powerboost can outrun a Raptor making 20 extra HP which is set up by SVT to Race.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-ford-f-150-powerboost-first-test/

I say the Powerboost Truck in sport mode on premium fuel has closer to 650-700 TQ to make that heavier truck move off the line that quickly. I’ve power launched it with me and over 700 LBS of work things (tied down). If you monitor the calculated TQ PID the powerboost in sport mode the TQ peaks at 120%. This doesn’t always happen in normal mode or eco mode. But the truck hits hard in 4x4 sport mode.

If you do the math of the 221 Instant Electric TQ + the normal EB TQ of 492TQ = That’s a Max combined 713TQ, not 575 TQ like advertised, and it’s instant 200 FTlbs too, and I really feel like it’s all there in the Powerboost.

The HP should be Electric 47 HP (Per Ford Literature), combined with 394 HP Gas Twin Turbo Engine, well that is a combined 441 HP.

I feel that when you utilize premium fuel in the Powerboost for more than a tank, the computer will recalibrate and then you do see the above numbers.

The Hybrid system is something like 800-1200 lbs from what I can see, so it had to make higher than advertised numbers.

Has many people seen these on dynos on a cool day?

 

[scrming]

What no one has really pointed out yet is the fact that the powerboost engine has combined HP & TQ higher than the advertised 430HP & 575TQ. There is no way a 800LB heavier Powerboost can outrun a Raptor making 20 extra HP which is set up by SVT to Race.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-ford-f-150-powerboost-first-test/

I say the Powerboost Truck in sport mode on premium fuel has closer to 650-700 TQ to make that heavier truck move off the line that quickly. I’ve power launched it with me and over 700 LBS of work things (tied down). If you monitor the calculated TQ PID the powerboost in sport mode the TQ peaks at 120%. This doesn’t always happen in normal mode or eco mode. But the truck hits hard in 4x4 sport mode.

If you do the math of the 221 Instant Electric TQ + the normal EB TQ of 492TQ = That’s a Max combined 713TQ, not 575 TQ like advertised, and it’s instant 200 FTlbs too, and I really feel like it’s all there in the Powerboost.

The HP should be Electric 47 HP (Per Ford Literature), combined with 394 HP Gas Twin Turbo Engine, well that is a combined 441 HP.

I feel that when you utilize premium fuel in the Powerboost for more than a tank, the computer will recalibrate and then you do see the above numbers.

The Hybrid system is something like 800-1200 lbs from what I can see, so it had to make higher than advertised numbers.

Has many people seen these on dynos on a cool day?

hoping to get my PB on the dyno in September. We’ll see…

in the meantime based on the 1/4 mile times I come up with hp numbers that are close. Need to get the truck on the scales.

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