B&O Speaker Upgrade Recommendation

[techobrien]

I've read just about every thread there is to on speaker upgrades for the F150 Gen13/Gen14 but am having a hard time finding a concensus on what to do next.

I currently have 2x blown rear speakers on a '21 F150 SCREW Lariat, B&O 8 Speaker (non-unleashed). Rather than replace with the same factory paper cone garbage I'd like to replace with something that will perform a little better (more mid bass, more clarity, more output from the rear).

At this time I don't have any interest in external DSP / Amps, and don't plan to upgade in the future. I think with high-sensitivity / efficiency speakers the 640 watts that the B&O Amp has should be enough for what I'm after (assuming ~35-50W per channel), and using FORScan to output a flat response should help some too. I'd like to spend under $1k for replacing all the speakers except the sub including door baffle panels and some sound deadening material.

Options that I'm considering

Rear Doors:
Coaxial 2-way
Kicker KS 6.5" or 6.75"
JL C2 6.5" (note: C3 doesn't seem to come in a 6.5" two-way, and I don't want to drill a hole for an external tweeter in the rear)

Front Doors:
Component 2-way with Tweeter installed in the A pillars
Kicker KS 6x9 or 6.5" or 6.75"
JL C3 6.5"
I'd ruled out the JL C2 6x9 3-way or the JL C1 6x9 2-way / 3-way because I thoght there'd be too much tweeter presence in the fronts.

Tweeters:
1" from front speaker sets - goal is to keep the existing trim and looks like I can make this happen with a modular / convertable tweeter like the JL C3
Run off existing harness. Add high-pass filter (use crossover filter, build my own, or the C3 Tweeter alerady has one built in)

Center:
Edit: Seems like my original plan won't work since the speaker is 8 ohm not 4 ohm. I might need to look at the Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2". Althogh the sensitivity is much lower on the JL C2 and it *might* work out, I don't want to damage the factory amp expecting an 8 Ohm speaker.

3.5" Kicker KS or JL C2 Coaxial 2-way
The JL C2 seems to have much lower sensitivity (83 dB) than the other C2/C3 speakrs (90 dB) and the Kicker KS (88 dB). This might not be a bad thing considering how "present" the front is?

Questions:
- Are 6x9 really better / worse than 6.5's? It seems like yes they can output more mid-bass at the cost of distortion. How does this play out in the real world?
- Will 6.75's fit or shold I stick with 6.5's? Some say they're the exact same speaker with different brackets, so should I just stick with 6.5"?
- Does anyone have the harness information for the center 3.5" or 1" Tweeters? I'd like to track down factory connections and Cruthfield isn't a help here.
- Any other sensitive / efficient brands I shold be considering? Infinity Reference? Hertz? Morel? I'm no longer considering Focal's after some reviews that they're very bright / harsh / crisp - I think without a new sub this isn't going to be a good fit.
- Any other experience doing what I'm doing (B&O, stock amp, speaker upgrades) would be great!

Thanks

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[techobrien]

I'll keep a shopping list and running documentation for those interested in following along

Current Specs of 8 speaker B&O

640W Peak (Advertised)

Front Doors
Speaker Spec: 6"x9" 4-Ohm Woofer 25w RMS
PN: mu5z18808ja (?) or lc3z18808ba (?)
Brackets are built into speakers. Brackets required for adaptation to 6.5" or 6.75"
Connector / Harness adapter: Metra 72-5602

Tweeters
Speaker Spec: 1" 8-Ohm
PN: LJ6Z-18808-B(?) or mu5z18808ea (?)
Grille is separate from tweeter. Bracket adaptation / creation required
Connector / Harness adapter: Metra 72-5601

Rear Doors
Speaker Spec: 6.5" 4-Ohm 2-Way Coaxial 25w RMS
PN: JL3T-18808-RB
Connector / Harness adapter: Metra 72-5602

Center Channel
Speaker Spec: 3 1/2" 8-Ohm 10W RMS
PN: mu5z18808fa (?)
Connector / Harness adapter: Some modification required with a 3rd brake light harness:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089292V5C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Subwoofer
Speaker Spec: TBD
Connector / Harness adapter: TBD
Sub rear is open to the cab for "infinite baffle" design

1. Sound panels for doors: https://soundsgoodstereo.com/products/2021-2022-ford-f-150-custom-made-door-access-block-off-plates

 

[dafish]

Tech:

It's been near to a billion years since I played audiophile games, and even then a car just wasn't really the same playground. Still, a few answers:

1) I never felt 6x9 drivers created any sound problems at the bottom, but I'd moved to higher end enclosers and stopped screwing with "car" speakers fairly quickly.
2) Are the factory tweeters on a passive crossover or their own channel? Either way matching that efficiency would seem to be pretty important.
3) Props for thinking efficiency instead of more power. Much better path.

 

[techobrien]

Tech:

It's been near to a billion years since I played audiophile games, and even then a car just wasn't really the same playground. Still, a few answers:

1) I never felt 6x9 drivers created any sound problems at the bottom, but I'd moved to higher end enclosers and stopped screwing with "car" speakers fairly quickly.
2) Are the factory tweeters on a passive crossover or their own channel? Either way matching that efficiency would seem to be pretty important.
3) Props for thinking efficiency instead of more power. Much better path.

Thanks Fish.

1) Good to get your take. This obviously isn't going to be a perfect Sound Quality build but looking for general best improvements over stock.

2) Factory Tweeters are driven off the Audio Front Control Module (ACM aka Headunit) while the rest of the speakers (Center, 4x Doors, and Sub) are driven off the B&O Audio Digital Signal Processing Module (DSP) separately. The ACM and DSP are linked via a digital protocol AAB (Automotive Audio Bus). I believe the signal to the tweeters is a full signal (no digital crossover) and the tweeters have a blocking capacitor to remove lower frequencies. I'd need to keep or replicate this filter with new tweeters. See attached for B&O 8 speaker factory wiring diagrams.

3) I think re: efficiency I'm aiming for >92 dB of sensitivity. I have no idea what the factory speakers are, but this seems like a good target for "stock HU" or "stock Amp" territory. I expect I might lose a little volume over stock speakers but as long as I don't start distorting at high volumes I believe it'll work well enough.

 

[Rineland]

I’ve been looking into doing a similar speaker upgrade as you are. No plans on changing the amp or factory subwoofer. Just sound deadening the doors, block off plates, and replacing the door speakers and the center dash speaker. I intend to leave the factory tweeters in the A pillar. I ran into the same issue you are with the center channel being 8 ohm instead of 4. I’ve seen other report replacing it with a 4 ohm speaker and no reports of issues. Regarding the door speakers, I was also focused on sensitivity and from a previous build out I did with much success, settled again on Polk Audio. Specifically the DB692 for the front doors and the DB652 for the rear doors. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet but it’s in my list of things to do for next year. As far as harnesses go, I came to the same results you did for the door harnesses, however, I was curious if the Metra 72-5600 might fit the center dash speaker. It looks similar to the harness you linked.

I did make a change to my as built for the EQ in the DSP that you might be interested in trying as well. It really seemed to open up breadth of sound and frequency response to my ears.

Was
783-02-01 1CA9
Is
783-02-01 1B—

 

[techobrien]

... I ran into the same issue you are with the center channel being 8 ohm instead of 4. I’ve seen other report replacing it with a 4 ohm speaker and no reports of issues. . ...

I saw the same reports in a few places. I'm wondering (haven't run the math yet) if a 4-Ohm at low sensitivity (<90dB) vs an 8-Ohm at high-sensitivity (>90dB) would "sound" similar? Every 3 dB is a doubling of sound level per watt, and Power scales linearly with Impedance, so I would think that a -3dB different would be the same loudness as a -4 Ohm impedance change. Now whether or not the Amp can drive it without blowing up or distorting would be a different question and some output specs on the B&O would be really helpful here.

... Regarding the door speakers, I was also focused on sensitivity and from a previous build out I did with much success, settled again on Polk Audio. Specifically the DB692 for the front doors and the DB652 for the rear doors. ...

I'll definitely check out the Polk DB692 / DB652. I'm curious if overall it will be too "bright" leaving the factory tweeters in place in addition to the front doors now being coaxial, although honestly I don't think the factory tweeters are terribly loud to begin with and I imagine you can tune down the EQ if need be.

... As far as harnesses go, I came to the same results you did for the door harnesses, however, I was curious if the Metra 72-5600 might fit the center dash speaker. It looks similar to the harness you linked. ...

They're similar but I think won't fit without some modification. Per another forum the connectors are from the same family and are the same size / shape, but are keyed differently. The keying plastic pins are on the "side" instead of the bottom, but can be cut off altogether and used. I was thinking that cutting off those tabs might mean no snap-in retention though.

...
I did make a change to my as built for the EQ in the DSP that you might be interested in trying as well. It really seemed to open up breadth of sound and frequency response to my ears.
...

Thanks for the coding changes. I'll give that a whirl. Do you happen to know what that does exactly? Changes to a flat response or changes to frequency range?

 

[EcoBeastCA]

Upgrading your speakers without adding an amp is a complete waste of money because the factory B&O amp is hot garbage, and cannot drive higher quality speakers with the power or clarity they require. You might notice some difference but I'd be very surprised if it weren't just placebo effect. You also can't fix the bass roll-off past volume 15.

If you want good sound out of your system, install whatever speakers are within your budget and get a Kicker KEY200.4 along with the PAC APH-FD02 harness from @SoundsGoodStereo. It will be the best $320 you ever spent on your truck, and the improvement even with the stock speakers will blow your mind. They also have speaker and sound treatment packages.

I don't work for SGS, but them boys have looked after me right proper SEVERAL times and I will always recommend them first for audio!

 

[SoundsGoodStereo]

Upgrading your speakers without adding an amp is a complete waste of money because the factory B&O amp is hot garbage, and cannot drive higher quality speakers with the power or clarity they require. You might notice some difference but I'd be very surprised if it weren't just placebo effect. You also can't fix the bass roll-off past volume 15.

Yes, speakers by themselves will do nothing

If you want good sound out of your system, install whatever speakers are within your budget and get a Kicker KEY200.4 along with the PAC APH-FD02 harness from @SoundsGoodStereo. It will be the best $320 you ever spent on your truck, and the improvement even with the stock speakers will blow your mind. They also have speaker and sound treatment packages.

Yes, really can't beat this for the $$$

I don't work for SGS, but them boys have looked after me right proper SEVERAL times and I will always recommend them first for audio!

Appreciate it, glad we can help you

 

[techobrien]

Upgrading your speakers without adding an amp is a complete waste of money because the factory B&O amp is hot garbage, and cannot drive higher quality speakers with the power or clarity they require. You might notice some difference but I'd be very surprised if it weren't just placebo effect. You also can't fix the bass roll-off past volume 15.

If you want good sound out of your system, install whatever speakers are within your budget and get a Kicker KEY200.4 along with the PAC APH-FD02 harness from @SoundsGoodStereo. It will be the best $320 you ever spent on your truck, and the improvement even with the stock speakers will blow your mind. They also have speaker and sound treatment packages.

I don't work for SGS, but them boys have looked after me right proper SEVERAL times and I will always recommend them first for audio!

Do most people then leave the tweeters, center speaker, and sub amplified off the stock HU / B&O Amp? That seems like you'd have under-powered the rest of the system compared to the doors and the 4ch Kicker amp wouldn't be able to fully run its auto DSP voodoo if the tweeters are running off the HU. I also don't buy that applying "good" DSP after a "bad" DSP is good practice. It might fix some deficiencies but you'll never get back to a clean signal. At least buying a Zen A2B gets you back to a good base to start adding amps to.

There are SO many posts on this forum and others from people who have swapped just the speakers with "good" results that I have a hard time believing it's just a placebo. Material improvement over stock should be feasible with better materials on speakers of equivalent impedance and sensitivity. I understand the B&O Amp has its limitations, but adjusting to a flat EQ with better performing speakers doesn't provide ANY benefit? Also the OEM replacement speakers are ~$50 each so I don't believe it's a complete waste of money to replace something that is broken with something else of higher quality for not much more money.

 

[EcoBeastCA]

Do most people then leave the tweeters, center speaker, and sub amplified off the stock HU / B&O Amp? That seems like you'd have under-powered the rest of the system compared to the doors and the 4ch Kicker amp wouldn't be able to fully run its auto DSP voodoo if the tweeters are running off the HU. I also don't buy that applying "good" DSP after a "bad" DSP is good practice. It might fix some deficiencies but you'll never get back to a clean signal. At least buying a Zen A2B gets you back to a good base to start adding amps to.

There are SO many posts on this forum and others from people who have swapped just the speakers with "good" results that I have a hard time believing it's just a placebo. Material improvement over stock should be feasible with better materials on speakers of equivalent impedance and sensitivity. I understand the B&O Amp has its limitations, but adjusting to a flat EQ with better performing speakers doesn't provide ANY benefit? Also the OEM replacement speakers are ~$50 each so I don't believe it's a complete waste of money to replace something that is broken with something else of higher quality for not much more money.

Hey pal, it's your money so do whatever you like. I've told you what I've done and the results, and one of the most respected audio installers in the country agrees with my assessment. If that's all bunk to you there's nothing more to say, your mind's too made up to be confused with facts. ?‍

 

[techobrien]

Hey pal, it's your money so do whatever you like. I've told you what I've done and the results, and one of the most respected audio installers in the country agrees with my assessment. If that's all bunk to you there's nothing more to say, your mind's too made up to be confused with facts. ?‍

On the contrary, I'm really looking for some facts or data or user experience to help with my original problem (blown rear speakers needing replacement). I appreciate your feedback on what worked for you on an overhaul with amp and speakers, but that doesn't really help me address any of the questions I had. Like SPL levels with various speaker installs or some measurement of the factory speaker sensitivity / frequency response to aid in selection of replacements or details about the amp's output capability.

 

[EcoBeastCA]

On the contrary, I'm really looking for some facts or data or user experience to help with my original problem (blown rear speakers needing replacement). I appreciate your feedback on what worked for you on an overhaul with amp and speakers, but that doesn't really help me address any of the questions I had. Like SPL levels with various speaker installs or some measurement of the factory speaker sensitivity / frequency response to aid in selection of replacements or details about the amp's output capability.

I really don't understand what you're getting at with all this. You've already stated that you have a $1,000 budget and you're NOT amping anything, so why does SPL even matter? With all due respect, it looks like you're acting like an audiophile but you don't seem to have a handle on the basics. I mean for Christ's sakes you're upgrading the center channel over adding an amp.?‍

 

[JJSnell]

I threw in a JL 2 channel amp and two JL C2 6.5s for the rear doors and it makes a world of diff.
I have a pretty detailed write up on it (somewhere on here) and others have done the same thing with the same positive results.
I do have the Unleashed but I think it will work the same as the rear doors are powered by the head unit direct, not any B&O amp...

 

[HammaMan]

Start with the speakers, it's an easy first move focusing on efficiency.

If you do want to amp, the JBL 8 channel DSP is an easy option using high-level feed off of the factory amp. You can pull signal from the 4 door speakers and use the DSP to feed your 7 speakers with fine tuning of each channel. The only 2 channels not already running to the back is the tweeters, the center is back there. Not sure your engine but the powerboost already has power in the back to power the amp via the aux batt. Either way it'd add about $400 to the cost.

 

[techobrien]

I threw in a JL 2 channel amp and two JL C2 6.5s for the rear doors and it makes a world of diff.
I have a pretty detailed write up on it (somewhere on here) and others have done the same thing with the same positive results.
I do have the Unleashed but I think it will work the same as the rear doors are powered by the head unit direct, not any B&O amp...

Thanks JJ. Was it this one? https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/b-o-unleashed-finally-fixed-for-329.21763/

Did you keep your fronts and the rest of the speakers the same?

Re: Amp, I think that is one of the main differences between the B&O 8 and B&O 18. On mine (8 speaker) the four doors are powered off the DSP but on the 18 they're powered off the ACM.

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