The 'towing' capable EV....

[HammaMan]

So on a thread that likely went tangent I'd suggested that the perfect 'truck' EV that could tow would include an ICE 'power pack', basically a small generator unit that could be used for increasing range, or out-right operation of the vehicle. At CES Ram confirmed they're going to have an EV truck with a generator as an option!

It sounds like their options would be standard range BEV, long range BEV, and standard battery + generator unit.

Can't wait to see what Ford brings to the table. This is the only thing that makes sense for the foreseeable future to enable towing vehicles to have the bets of both worlds.

Given that the lightning when towing consumes about 1kW per mile, I'd expect to see about a 50kWh power pack (likely more than one size available as the larger trucks would use it).
For reference a generator with an output of 50kWh is equal to 67hp. There's some loses so probably an 80hp engine or so.

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[tbinmd]

That's called a plug in hybrid. I was hoping the powerboost was going to be a plug in hybrid. Hopefully Ford brings on out. Still hard to get around the weight penalty.

 

[tbinmd]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39038431/ram-1500-ev-truck-range-extender-report/

 

[HammaMan]

That's called a plug in hybrid. I was hoping the powerboost was going to be a plug in hybrid. Hopefully Ford brings on out. Still hard to get around the weight penalty.

No, you misunderstand. This isn't an ICE / hybrid combo, it's an EV with a small generator. Not an ICE vehicle with a little electric motor. It's a BEV w/ generator. That's a whole other class of vehicle. Ford has a patent for one mounted under the bed. There's no connection from the generator to the drivetrain.

 

[tbinmd]

No, I understand. It makes more sense to be a plug in hybrid. Think of something like the i8, does not have to be a little electric motor. Generator will have to be a substantial size to have an impact, since a truck with weight will see high Kw per mile usage. It's an interesting problem. Otherwise somebody would have done it already.

Also this is the CEO talking out his a$$. Still vapor ware, nothing was shown.

 

[HammaMan]

No, I understand. It makes more sense to be a plug in hybrid. Think of something like the i8, does not have to be a little electric motor. Generator will have to be a substantial size to have an impact, since a truck with weight will see high Kw per mile usage. It's an interesting problem. Otherwise somebody would have done it already.

Also this is the CEO talking out his a$$. Still vapor ware, nothing was shown.

Yeah, I'd think they'd classify this as a new type of vehicle for marketing (making the public understand). An optional power pack like this is a whole other class of vehicle than PHEVs of today.

It's unfortunate they skimped on the PB's battery and motor given that they've got the one in the lincoln that, combined with 1/5th of a standard lightning battery would have made a 'keeper' of a truck.

 

[Zengineer]

Nissan has such a system under development. The linked page also does a good job of explaining EV vs typical hybrid vs their E-power system.

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/INNOVATION/TECHNOLOGY/ARCHIVE/E_POWER/

 

[sbreech]

So wait, am I reading this correctly? You want an electric vehicle with a built in generator and gas tank so you can charge the battery to run the electric motor?

 

[redline]

There is no such thing as a tow capable ev … in this space it will be hydrogen or sync fuels

 

[Buyer2021]

I'm genuinely trying to follow what you're hoping for @HammaMan (it strikes me as interesting), but I need some help ...

1. What's the ~range of a Lightning (just for an example to work from) when towing in the manner you contemplate (your 'hypothetical baseline' of trailer size and speed / driving conditions)?
2. What's the ~range between 'plug-in charging events' that would be needed to fit your criteria for a 'towing capable EV'?

... basically a small generator unit that could be used for increasing range ...

This sounds like a scenario where the "generator unit" would not have sufficient output to 'keep even' with battery rate of discharge when towing, but would run during driving to reduce the net battery discharge rate by some fraction, is that correct?

IOW, one would still need to 'plug-in', just less frequently?

.... or out-right operation of the vehicle ....

This sounds like a generator unit capable of supporting 'infinite' range (with fuel fill-ups)? IOW a generator unit capable of 'keeping-even' with battery rate of discharge. Wouldn't that require a rather large generator capable of providing 100% of the motive energy for the vehicle, basically like a diesel-electric locomotive? Please help me understand how what you envision in this scenario differs from that and the role of battery storage in your "out-right operation" scenario.

EDIT - perhaps what you envision in this scenario is functionally equivalent to the Nissan e-Power scheme linked by @Zengineer (which I should have read before posting)?

Yes, I've read your reply in post #4 above, but that didn't help me. I'm ignoring 'labels' for now (noting it seems no current 'label' fits your concept), just trying to understand the functional requirements / goals in broader / conceptual terms, and how those might be realized in your vision.

Thanks in advance for your patience and enlightenment.

 

[12Lariat21]

Trains and really big mining trucks run a generator to power electric motors like you are talking. They do it only for the benefit of the instant and constant torque delivered by an electric motor.

The whole ICE (internal combustion engine) on a generator is a horribly inefficient way to make power and move something.
You have a maybe 35% efficient ICE and now you want to couple that with a 80-90% efficient electric motor, you are just taking the ICE and reducing it to 15-25% efficient.

I'm not sure how efficient a coal, hydro, nuclear, wind, solar power plant is, but it's efficiency over an ICE is the only net benefit of an electric powered vehicle. Beyond that its all just what lies you tell yourself, or buy into from marketers that make you feel like your doing something good by driving electric.

I wish all the marketing lies about electric were true, it would be fantastic to live in a clean society without fuel and oil, but reality just doesn't work that way. All power consumption comes at a cost, it's just what your willing to sacrifice, and where.

 

[imnuts]

An ICE powered generator to charge batteries for extended range can run more efficiently than a regular ICE vehicle. The reasoning, you design the generator to run at the highest efficiency point of the engine running it. It doesn't have to try to be partially efficient over a broad range of RPMs. It's not going to be as efficient as a power plant, but it isn't as terrible as a strictly ICE vehicle.

 

[bcb97]

Specs for the new Ram EV are coming out and they are pretty impressive.

 

[sbreech]

So, are these built in generators going to have all of the same emissions controls for the EPA that ICE have, stripping them of efficiencies, or will they create more pollution than said ICE, but the drivers of these “E Vehicle” can virtue signal by “driving electric?”

 

[amschind]

So wait, am I reading this correctly? You want an electric vehicle with a built in generator and gas tank so you can charge the battery to run the electric motor?

Yes. Generally, the battery is a electricity buffer and as a result the engine can pass electrons directly through to the drive motors when operating at a steady state (e.g. on the highway).

EMD

The huge challenge with an ICE is that it has a very narrow band where it is efficient and powerful. Nearly all of the complexity in modern vehicles is directed at solving that issue (and to a lesser extent pollution control). The far more elegant solution is to completely decouple ICE RPM from drive motor RPM. 100 years of building transmissions has made great strides, but at the cost of complexity and expense while still failing to address the underlying issue (the ICE's narrow power band).

The electric vehicle doesn't end the ICE: it ends transmissions, differentials, CV shafts, drive shafts, torque converters cam phasers and hopefully also cams. You could build a one-off F150 with 775 lb-ft/580 HP (i.e. just reusing the Lightning chassis and drive motors) yanks 80% of the batteries out and engineer in a generator ICE (such as Achates Power/Junkers Jumo 2 stroke). The bog standard one bolted to a 10R80 got 37 MPG, so the hybrid would probably hit 40 depending upon where you drove it.

775 lb ft, 580 HP and 40 MPG using parts that are physically installed in working F150s right now. The only reason that we don't have this vehicle is because we don't demand it.

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