P0430 - Failed Catalytic Converter (pictures)

[Davidwnuc]

Not long back I got a check engine light with P0430 (catalytic converter efficiency threshold low) as the only code.
Took the truck to the dealership and the performed a desulfate procedure, cleared the code, and sent me on my way…
Code came back the same day. Took it back to dealer and the replaced the driver side catalytic converter.
Searching around the internet I found several examples of 2021+ trucks experiencing the same issues. All engines too not just supercharged trucks like mine. So don’t be come in here saying it is the amount of power or the blower causing the problem without references. The added power could be amplifying the problem, but it’s not the cause.

From my research I have come to two conclusions.

1: Ford cat over temperature strategy is causing thermal shock to the cats which intern is causing a crack/fault and then it eventually comes apart.

2: Ford is sourcing cats that are more likely to fail than previous generations.

Could be both…or I could be wrong.

A dude on the mustang6g forum did a lot of data gathering and that string of posts is where I got most of my info about the over temperature strategy.

Dealership let me look at the bad one when i picked up my truck. Sounded like a coffee can full of rocks when I shook it…it’s a wonder I didn’t hear it while driving.

Looks like chunks of 2x4…lol

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[SALEEN961]

I have heard that catalytic converter failures are much more common on supercharged 5.0 F150s because of how quickly they hit the catalyst protection limit, and how much time they spend in catalyst protection enrichment compared to a stock 5.0 F150.

I'm not sure what Roush or Whipple sets the catalyst protection lambda to, but Ford typically sets it at 0.68-0.70 (9.57-9.86 to 1 AFR). If you have any datalogs, it would be very interesting to see what limits your truck hits and what your commanded lambda is during a 1/4 mile run.

 

[Davidwnuc]

I have heard that catalytic converter failures are much more common on supercharged 5.0 F150s because of how quickly they hit the catalyst protection limit, and how much time they spend in catalyst protection enrichment compared to a stock 5.0 F150.

I'm not sure what Roush or Whipple sets the catalyst protection lambda to, but Ford typically sets it at 0.68-0.70 (9.57-9.86 to 1 AFR). If you have any datalogs, it would be very interesting to see what limits your truck hits and what your commanded lambda is during a 1/4 mile run.

I have talked to Roush and plan to open a case and see if they would be willing to look at data logs. I have not purchased anything to data log with yet because I know Roush uses their own RDT software and I want to make sure they will actually look at the logs first.

I understand that supercharging wil create more heat but I have found more examples of stock trucks with failed cats than i have supercharged ones. If you know of some examples, please forward them to this thread so we can discuss common causes. I don’t have facebook so it’s possible that they are there. But that doesn’t explain the stock 2.7, 3.5, and 5.0 issues…unless Roush and whipple are using the stock Ford strategy and through error carried forward supercharged trucks are more likely to experience the problem.

Also, I have never ran a quarter mile. most i have done is some 0-60 pulls. I just got a draggy so i had planned on 1/4 pulls in Mexico before it gets hot.

 

[Viper]

Looks like chunks of wood inside there. I have a 22 Limited duel Turbo and I am waiting on my 3'rd Cat replacement. (And I drive very easy) using 93 octane

 

[SALEEN961]

Looks like chunks of wood inside there. I have a 22 Limited duel Turbo and I am waiting on my 3'rd Cat replacement. (And I drive very easy) using 93 octane

Sounds like there's an undiagnosed issue if you're seeing repeated failures.

I have talked to Roush and plan to open a case and see if the would be willing to look at data logs. I have not purchased anything to data log with yet because I know Roush uses their own RDT software and I want to make sure they will actually look at the logs first.

I understand that supercharging wil create more heat but I have found more examples of stock trucks with failed cats than i have supercharged ones. If you know of some examples, please forward them to this thread so we can discuss common causes. I don’t have facebook so it’s possible that they are there. But that doesn’t explain the stock 2.7, 3.5, and 5.0 issues…unless Roush and whipple are using the stock Ford strategy and through error carried forward supercharged trucks are more likely to experience the problem.

Most of the failures I've seen people report have been in Facebook groups that are dedicated to modified 5.0 F150s. I would agree that the failures certainly aren't limited to supercharged F150s, but I would argue that supercharged 5.0 F150s have a higher failure rate compared to N/A 5.0 F150s.

Keep in mind that supercharged 5.0 F150s a make up a very small minority of the 2 million plus 2021-2023 F150s that Ford produced. I still expect to see failures on stock F150s, but the failure rate should be much lower even though the overall number of failures will probably be higher.

A stock truck can sit at WOT for a fairly long time before it hits temps high enough to enable catalyst protection enrichment. When you significantly increase power output and also significantly retard the ignition timing, your exhaust temps will hit dangerous levels much faster.

 

[Davidwnuc]

A stock truck can sit at WOT for a fairly long time before it hits temps high enough to enable catalyst protection enrichment. When you significantly increase power output and also significantly retard the ignition timing, your exhaust temps will hit dangerous levels much faster.

Yes, I realize there are more non supercharged F150s than there are supercharged versions. If only supercharged trucks were experiencing failures then my only conclusion would the the supercharger or associated tune was causing it.

There are several guys on here with multiple cat replacements. You would think Ford would stop paying for the replacements and figure out the root cause.

Do you have data logs for stock 5.0s at WOT for long periods of time so we can see what their cat temp gets too? Also, that PID is calculated and not actual. you would need to attach or install a thermocouple to know the actual temps.

You aren’t going to talk me out of this…lol…(unless someone comes along with compelling evidence) there is an issue and i don’t believe the superchargers are the cause. They my make an issue worse but they aren’t THE reason for cat failures.
More to come i guess.

 

[SALEEN961]

You aren’t going to talk me out of this…lol…(unless someone comes along with compelling evidence) there is an issue and i don’t believe the superchargers are the cause. They my make an issue worse but they aren’t THE reason for cat failures.
More to come i guess.

I never said the supercharger or tune was the root cause of cat failures, I even said that I expect a certain number of cats to fail on stock trucks. I just expect the failure rate as a percentage to be higher on vehicles that routinely trigger catalyst protection enrichment due to their design or usage.

Understanding that you can reasonably expect the total number of failures to be vastly higher that just what you've personally seen reported, what percentage of the over 2 million 2021-2023 F150s built do you believe have had cat failures? What percentage do you think would be statistically significant to Ford?

 

[Davidwnuc]

I never said the supercharger or tune was the root cause of cat failures, I even said that I expect a certain number of cats to fail on stock trucks. I just expect the failure rate as a percentage to be higher on vehicles that routinely trigger catalyst protection enrichment due to their design or usage.

Understanding that you can reasonably expect the total number of failures to be vastly higher that just what you've personally seen reported, what percentage of the over 2 million 2021-2023 F150s built do you believe have had cat failures? What percentage do you think would be statistically significant to Ford?

All good questions and ones I have only skimmed over. It would take a lot of guessing on my part.
Only Fords accounting department can answer your last question. Maybe it’s cheaper to replace them as they fail than it is to source cats with a higher margin to failure or to get the cat temps under control through the tune. If I got paid to run all those numbers and come up with answers i was confident with, I would. It would take a lot of time a data digging (that we probably don’t have access to) to figure out.
I’m going to see if I can work with Roush on a tune revision if they are open to it. My dealer didn’t open a case with them so they didn’t pay for my cat. they may not care or have data to support spending time revising the tune. We shall see.

 

[Jaredr821]

The problem is they warranty the whipple with the trucks factory warranty. I had to exercise this with the ford buy back plan after the 3rd engine on my last truck with only 7200 miles on it. Ended up being the cats all along. On my new one I did a cat back exhaust to let it breathe better(doesn’t void warranty) and had much better luck(8700 on current truck) both 5.0 w 3.0 whipple from dealer. The tool that comes with the truck I can get to the data log screen with the numbers mentioned in previous post will report back(anyone with a whipple can do a data capture on tuner that comes with the kit)

 

[TexasTruck]

I'm not sure what Roush or Whipple sets the catalyst protection lambda to, but Ford typically sets it at 0.68-0.70 (9.57-9.86 to 1 AFR).

What is lambda or how does it work or what does it measure, etc?

 

[TexasTruck]

On my new one I did a cat back exhaust to let it breathe better(doesn’t void warranty) and had much better luck(8700 on current truck) both 5.0 w 3.0 whipple from dealer.

I'm stuck on whether I should look into a cat back. I always thought they do little for flow because the catalytic converters are still in place. Does it really breathe better?

 

[TexasTruck]

Dealership let me look at the bad one when i picked up my truck. Sounded like a coffee can full of rocks when I shook it…it’s a wonder I didn’t hear it while driving.

Looks like chunks of 2x4…lol

It's amazing the chunks didn't cause more of a restriction and back pressure. There is a fella on the mustang6g who noted he hears a rattle on the passenger side at idle and suspects the CAT.......

 

[TexasTruck]

If running rich damages the catalytic converter it seems using fuel to protect (cool) it just prolongs the inevitable ?‍

FWIW.... I read somewhere that the Whipple COT protection kicks in when the temperature is 1650* for 4 seconds..... so many things to ponder..... ?‍

 

[SALEEN961]

What is lambda or how does it work or what does it measure, etc?

Lambda is a measure of air fuel ratio based on the stoichiometric ratio for the particular fuel you're using. Under normal light load conditions, your lambda will normally be 1.00. If you are using a normal fuel with a stoich ratio of 14.08 to 1, a 1.00 lambda would be:

14.08 stoich x 1.00 lambda = 14.08 air fuel ratio

Under wide open throttle conditions, you might see a lambda of 0.80:
14.08 stoich x 0.80 lambda = 11.26 air fuel ratio

When your truck hits catalyst protection enrichment, you might see a lambda of 0.68:
14.08 stoich x 0.68 lambda = 9.57 air fuel ratio

If running rich damages the catalytic converter it seems using fuel to protect (cool) it just prolongs the inevitable ?‍

FWIW.... I read somewhere that the Whipple COT protection kicks in when the temperature is 1650* for 4 seconds..... so many things to ponder..... ?‍

Hitting catalyst protection enrichment for a few seconds here or there can be helpful because it cools the cats. The problem is when you make way more power/heat than stock or remove speed limiters that used to prevent extended WOT driving and start doing high speed roll racing or 1/2 mile drag racing.

If you find yourself in a situation where catalyst protection enrichment is active very often and stays on for extended periods of time, it isn't helping anymore and it might be making things worse. When this happens you need to reevaluate your tune, use case, or the design of your vehicle to avoid damaging the cats.

 

[Jaredr821]

I'm stuck on whether I should look into a cat back. I always thought they do little for flow because the catalytic converters are still in place. Does it really breathe better?

Definitely the muffler and resonator slow down the flow especially in boosted applications and would go to bet it helps the cats cool faster rather than holding in the heat. Be prepared it’s loud on start up and when you get on it. Not bad when cruising.

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