So you decided to buy an ICE truck.... WHY?

[HammaMan]

How about hydrogen over electric? I'd do more research on that tech!

Hydrogen is electric. It replaces a large battery with a small battery + specialized high pressure tanks while using a fuel cell to generate electricity. It's effectively a different kind of battery, but with a fuel cell which if you saw the price of fuel cells, you'd wish it was only a battery if it ever needed replacing. It costs more to replace fuel cells than the cost of the vehicle. Plus hydrogen requires ~2x the energy to produce than it just does using electric out-right. Then there's pesky little facts that it's a tiny molecule and requires special metals to be used in anything it contacts, the storage tank is at ~8,000psi, and being a tiny molecule it's a booger to contain because it can just pass through materials, some of which it molecularly destroys in the process.

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[Eskram]

the storage tank is at ~8,000psi

8,000psi of flammable gas, in a moving vehicle sounds safe.. I'm sure someone smart thought of it, but it seems like a movie explosion waiting to happen.

 

[HammaMan]

8,000psi of flammable gas, in a moving vehicle sounds safe.. I'm sure someone smart thought of it, but it seems like a movie explosion waiting to happen.

A tank explosion would increase the gas volume around 5,000 times (big boom)
A leak would make one helluva blow torch even florida man would be jealous of. Here's a bus with CNG.

 

[HammaMan]

Here's some more cold weather fun. Even at 30% charge remaining, it's pulling substantial power. EVs require a lifestyle change of sorts. Lots of proactive measures and planning. Even if charged to 100%, if left out overnight unplugged and it cold soaks, 50% of range is just gone. To get the battery up to a respectable temp, you should turn it on and tell it to navigate to a fast charger located within 20 miles so the you can trigger battery preconditioning (if plugged into 6kW or better charging). You can't do that from the app, and the vehicle's logic isn't smart enough to actually put some decent heat into the battery before you set off.

Most importantly, if you don't have access to at least a 25a 240v socket in winter, an EV just isn't for you unless you're okay with 40-50% of stated range, assuming you don't over do it on the climate settings. Depending on variables, cabin heating could not be available because all of the heating functionality is 100% being diverted to the battery. That said if you can live with all of the shortcomings, EVs make great beaters.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/turtle-mode-with-30-left-cold-weather-warning.33148/

 

[amschind]

The bigger issue is that right now, I pay less per mile with my PB than a Lightning. 87 is about $2.5-2.8, whereas 93 is $3.3-3.6. MPG varies between 21 and as low as 14 (mostly a function of speed and wind, so that would affect an EV in similar proportion). Generally I can maintain 21 if I am careful, which means 60-65 MPH and ideally behind a big truck. $2.6/gal/21 MPG gives $0.12/mile. $0.3/kWh/2.5 miles/kWh gives $0.12; $0.45/kWhj/2.2 miles/kWh gives $0.2/mile.

I don't think that those prices are a good indicator for the future, nor do I believe that the fuel economy for the PB is even close to representative of what is possible with extant tech. Based upon demonstrated tech, an F150 should be easily capable of 40 MPG. I think that US crude prices are headed for $120-$150/bbl (which works against the ICE here, so you could eliminate that part of the equation if you don't share that assumption). That would give roughly $4-$4.5/gal/40MPG, or $0.1-$0.1125/mile for a opposed piston GDCI 2 stroke series hybrid, while energy cost for the EV would likely rise as well. Natural gas prices are hard to estimate because there are so many big factors pushing that price up and down. Further, an EV that you charge from roof solar has a fuel cost that is 100% the amortized capital cost/opportunity cost of your solar array and charging hardware. The flip side is that while I'm using commercial fast charging as a comparison, today grid level 2 charging is variably cheaper. In Texas, each kWh costs $0.17-19, while other parts of the country can have much higher or lower costs. Extrapolating that into the future is nearly impossible because if a substantial portion of transportation energy demand moved to the grid, prices would go up even for folks who don't own an EV.

My rather odd take-away is that I want to be off grid and have an electric tractor but an ICE truck. I was one of the folks who had Griddy during the ice storm in 2021, and I absolutely loved it. I was stuck in the hospital for 2 days and when I got home, I hunkered down in a 0F sleeping bag and ran the heater just enough to keep the temperatures above 40F inside. I believe that if at least half of ERCOT customers had been on a real-time pricing electric plan like Griddy, the grid would've been fine because people were incentivized to reduce power by prices. Of course, some folks couldn't figure that out and that entire class of service got banned, but it would've been a great way to have an EV for cheap even if you didn't have solar. You paid market spot, so my average was about $0.03/kWh in a rented house with poor insulation and an old AC; my only recourse was shutting off the AC when prices got high in the summer and it STILL worked well. As I don't see that coming back, the next best option is just cutting ties with the grid.

 

[FordPrefect]

IMO, right now, ICE (or better yet, hybrid) trucks solve for road trips, particularly while towing bigger things, and longer commutes, particularly in cold weather.

Last week I got invited to order the Cybertruck that I've been waiting for, for years. Unlike the LIghting, it would have met my expectations for long trips without our travel trailer, because the Tesla charging network is OK and getting better rapidly. However, the CT can't tow. Well, it can tow amaze-balls amounts of mass for a few hundred feet, but Tesla misses the point with that crap. The CT range while towing a midsized travel trailer might be effectively 80 miles or so (from 80% down to 20%). With the range extender they proposed to build for me a year from now, it might get to 120.

That's not enough, in my opinion. I like being able to tow for about half a day before fueling. Anything much less seems like an unreasonable handicap.

So, I'm keeping the Powerboost for now. Never thought I'd say that - I was sure I'd get to stop pumping gasoline when the CT showed up.

The day will come, soon enough, I hope. Energy density in batteries is improving. IMO travel trailers should already be packing battery packs and electric motors of their own - we will begin to see that for real, pretty soon. Someday, I'll get to stop pumping gas... someday...

 

[fordtruckman2003]

EV over promising. They will get better as batteries get better, denser. Realistically I don't see a pickup truck EV ever being a tow vehicle though. Very good grocery getter.

 

[HammaMan]

Last week I got invited to order the Cybertruck that I've been waiting for, for years. Unlike the LIghting, it would have met my expectations for long trips without our travel trailer, because the Tesla charging network is OK and getting better rapidly. However, the CT can't tow.

CT is a huge letdown. They still haven't even enabled diff lockers on it. Not sure how that's a yet-to-be-coded feature. No ADAS yet, but soon ™. In off road mode it just peg legs the wheels, doesn't even have ABS stability/traction control kick in. 250 miles 100%-0 highway range and not even 100 miles of towing. That's as bad as my mach-e. Poor charging curve (all 4680 batteries suffer from it). There's still a lot of hype around it but each new metric that gets tested chips away it. They emailed at least the first 100k reservation holders trying to get their $20k foundation package sold that's supposed to be limited to 1,000 units.

If RAM can't deliver, the market just may stagnate on a practical modernized truck.

 

[imnuts]

I got ICE because that was the only option when I wanted/needed a new vehicle. However, I've been driving a Lightning as a loaner the past week as my truck is in the shop for the front diff. I would be fine with an EV for a DD vehicle, but not for distance. It's a little inconvenient as a loaner as I don't have a charger at home, but I'm making due. Overall, the EV truck has been great as it's optioned nearly the same as my truck, and winter range is bad if HVAC is on, even at very low temps. We could have made it work, but definitely not as convenient for longer travel as my Powerboost.

I'm sure Ford didn't go with the PHEV due to avoiding it taking Lightning sales, but I think that's going to be the best of both worlds. At this point, that's probably the only thing I'll replace my truck with, especially of we can go with 3 vehicles.

 

[Kanuck]

IMO, right now, ICE (or better yet, hybrid) trucks solve for road trips, particularly while towing bigger things, and longer commutes, particularly in cold weather.

Last week I got invited to order the Cybertruck that I've been waiting for, for years. Unlike the LIghting, it would have met my expectations for long trips without our travel trailer, because the Tesla charging network is OK and getting better rapidly. However, the CT can't tow. Well, it can tow amaze-balls amounts of mass for a few hundred feet, but Tesla misses the point with that crap. The CT range while towing a midsized travel trailer might be effectively 80 miles or so (from 80% down to 20%). With the range extender they proposed to build for me a year from now, it might get to 120.

That's not enough, in my opinion. I like being able to tow for about half a day before fueling. Anything much less seems like an unreasonable handicap.

So, I'm keeping the Powerboost for now. Never thought I'd say that - I was sure I'd get to stop pumping gasoline when the CT showed up.

The day will come, soon enough, I hope. Energy density in batteries is improving. IMO travel trailers should already be packing battery packs and electric motors of their own - we will begin to see that for real, pretty soon. Someday, I'll get to stop pumping gas... someday...

I believe Airstream has already put electric motors on their axles. I not sure if they can do highway speeds tho.

 

[jfried]

Because there's nothing that can replace an ICE truck today and only a single vehicle publicly announced that could even begin to compete with them, and that competitive edge is derived from the fact that it's got an ICE onboard.

Here's the issue with a BEV truck - range sucks, charging time sucks, and the number of places to charge sucks, and of the places that have chargers, their uptime sucks -- and if it's broke out-right, you're probably stranded. (see vid below, spoiler it didn't get but 92 miles out of a fully charged battery, and to just get back to 80% of its charge took 45 minutes)

I follow several tesla fanbois and their responses are hilarious (to how bad the overall performance of the CT is). As soon as I find someone with a CT around these parts, I'm going to try and do a collab vid of sorts where the CT starts out towing my truck until it dies, then we'll put the CT on the trailer and see how far I can drag it while charging it.

This.

I get why people buy Teslas -- especially Model 3s. For a daily commute for most people, you're not going to run out of range, especially if you have charging on the other end. Even for a roadtrip, sure, you're going to stop more often than you would in a gas car, and you're going to be there for probably three times as long as filling up the tank... but you're talking 15 minutes instead of 5. Most would happily take the liesurely walk.

The Lightning (and Cybertruck) is a beast of a performer, don't get me wrong; but a large proportion of pickup truck drivers use their vehicles differently than somebody who buys a mid-size sedan.

People who buy pickup trucks tow large things with them. People who buy mid-size sedans don't.

People who buy pickup trucks sometimes like to put off-roady tires on. People who buy mid-size sedans don't.

People who buy pickup trucks likely do longer regular drives than those who buy mid-size sedans, given the comfort that the increased size offers / having a couch on wheels effect. That couch on wheels means if you're a road-tripper, you're waiting a while to fill that battery up.

Gas is better than EV for those types of uses.... and a lot of those are what pickups are primarily used for. Sure, we all love the idea of our 7000# truck going 0-60 in 4 seconds and the ridiculous concept of that... but most people don't do 0-60 runs every day; or even more than once.

 

[amschind]

8,000psi of flammable gas, in a moving vehicle sounds safe.. I'm sure someone smart thought of it, but it seems like a movie explosion waiting to happen.

Oddly no. A buddy's rich friend had a hydrogen tank, and because he is a redneck with oil money, his first thought was "I need to get my buds together, drink coldbeer, and shoot it with my .270 WSM". So they did. They weren't sure they hit it because nothing happened, but after another round "missed", they went up to inspect. Sure enough, there were two tiny holes, each spewing a basically clear flame. So while that would surely catch whatever the flame was hitting on fire, it's actually quite challenging to make a hydrogen tank Michael Bay explode.

 

[JExpedition07]

My dad’s good friend has the Tesla Plaid he uses as a commuter, he’s bought a few model 3 for his company as well. The plaid shocks your organs when he accelerates. But the dude still owns a 7.3 Godzilla F-350 for pulling his toys. I asked him “which car do you prefer, your plaid or your Godzilla Ford?”
He said “If I could only pick one it’s the Godzilla, because it sounds like this when I floor it, whether we are going slower or not” and proceeded to hammer down .
MERICA ?

 

[Pronebeta]

Was going for lightwning. Liked the frunk, mileage was within my commute, tool around town doing multiple jobs, could back up a sumppump and refrigerator at my house if we lost power, ...but could convince the wife who heard it all day from her highend clients that bought lightnings and returned them.
PB gives me the ability to do all that (except frunk) and keep the gas cost resonable to an suv. And we can do big trips with a large gas tank.

 

[DeancNYC]

I'm interested in hearing from people who were considering a "Lightning" and decided to go with a Gasoline Burning engine powered truck instead...

And I'm sure THIS GUY would be too if he weren't a "to be avoided at ALL COSTS" POS troll... (FYI)

I am probably one of the rare people who actually drive both. I have a 23 Lightining work truck and now on my second gen 14 ICE truck. Currently in a new 23 Lariat. So I had a choice of both when I went in for the new one a few weeks ago. I work as a Chief Engineer so I understand the technology. Also as an Engineer I understand the "illusion " of EV's being totally clean for the environment. To be honest the Lightning is a very nice truck even in the work truck trim. But I do have to deal with the reality of charging and in my opinion though the vehicles are good the charging/battery tecnology is not there yet. I love my 23 Lariat it rides nice and has all of the features I want. As others have meantioned, I will take 5 minutes in the gas station over spending an hour charging ( 1. if the charger is working, 2. if the two fast chargers are available.) I see it every day.

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