F-150 Hybrid PowerBoost vs. F-150 Lightning Comparison: Towing, Hauling, Acceleration (Cars.com)

[Savannah Power]

A 12v 200 amp alternator only requires between 2-4hp to run less than most ac compressors. Input on a standard alternator is 12v at about 2 amps to excite the windings so the unit will generate electrical power. The output voltage can be set to 6, 12, 24, 48v etc and amperage easily up to 200 on demand by the system. They could configure it so it only engages at say freeway speeds to minimize excessive drag on the system as well as divide the battery up into banks when active. Have it so the system would charge the left bank at say 60% remaining capacity, bring that bank up to 80% of full then switch to the other bank. Repeat this charging cycle with each bank so it beings it up to say 80% of the last charge cycle the alternator completed. Eventually the system will require a complete charge from an external source.

You just invented a classical perpetual motion machine. An alternator uses about 1 hp to produce 700 watts of power, the typical 200A, 12V alternator uses over 5hp at full output. Basically the friction losses, conversion losses and heat loss make these systems a net loser.
However, Ford patented a range extender using a gas or diesel ICE driving a generator and supplying power to the Lightning's battery through a quick-connect system a few years ago. You would rent the system which the dealer drops into the bed, and with about 20 gals of fuel capacity you could either gain hundreds of miles of range, or extended the towing.
Another version of the same system could just be a battery pack, and if you can access two chargers at once it would not add to the recharge time.
A truck was photographed with an unusually large "toolbox" bearing a box manufacturer's nameplate, but was probably hiding this system being tested in the real world.

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[Porpoise Hork]

You just invented a classical perpetual motion machine. An alternator uses about 1 hp to produce 700 watts of power, the typical 200A, 12V alternator uses over 5hp at full output. Basically the friction losses, conversion losses and heat loss make these systems a net loser.
However, Ford patented a range extender using a gas or diesel ICE driving a generator and supplying power to the Lightning's battery through a quick-connect system a few years ago. You would rent the system which the dealer drops into the bed, and with about 20 gals of fuel capacity you could either gain hundreds of miles of range, or extended the towing.
Another version of the same system could just be a battery pack, and if you can access two chargers at once it would not add to the recharge time.
A truck was photographed with an unusually large "toolbox" bearing a box manufacturer's nameplate, but was probably hiding this system being tested in the real world.

At what point did I say that it would be ANYTHING about it being in line with the following definition???

"Perpetual motion is the motion of bodies that continues forever in an unperturbed system."

I have on every single response that everyone has made CLEARLY stated the counter to this very definition. At no point have I said "Oh hey guys with this you could drive an EV car fo-eva YO!"

I am well aware of the parasitic losses a system like this would have. I merely proposed an idea that if the engineering were done correctly if it were feasible it could POTENTIALLY extend the range one could drive to a point. NOTHING MORE... No mention that it would extend the range to thousands of miles or something stupid like that. We're talking maybe at best 1-200 additional miles at the most.

If you cannot grasp that then that's your problem.

 

[Savannah Power]

At what point did I say that it would be ANYTHING about it being in line with the following definition???

"Perpetual motion is the motion of bodies that continues forever in an unperturbed system."

I have on every single response that everyone has made CLEARLY stated the counter to this very definition. At no point have I said "Oh hey guys with this you could drive an EV car fo-eva YO!"

I am well aware of the parasitic losses a system like this would have. I merely proposed an idea that if the engineering were done correctly if it were feasible it could POTENTIALLY extend the range one could drive to a point. NOTHING MORE... No mention that it would extend the range to thousands of miles or something stupid like that. We're talking maybe at best 1-200 additional miles at the most.

If you cannot grasp that then that's your problem.

Sorry to say, but if you don't get the losses compared to benefits, that your problem. Such a system will shorten range, not add to it.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Sorry to say, but if you don't get the losses compared to benefits, that your problem. Such a system will shorten range, not add to it.

Are you a mechanical and/or electrical engineer? If no then sorry but you lack the appropriate knowledge to make that assertion.

 

[Savannah Power]

Are you a mechanical and/or electrical engineer? If no then sorry but you lack the appropriate knowledge to make that assertion.

As a matter of fact I am an engineer, Georgia Tech. The way to visualize this is comparison to an ICE truck, about 1/3 of the fuel energy moves the truck, about a 1/3 goes out the radiator, and 1/3 out the tailpipe. Those heat losses limit the efficency of ICE systems.
In your system a bit over half the power consumed driving the alternator goes back to the main battery through a charger that is about 95% efficient. the mechanical drive system is about 90-95% efficient plus the 90-95% conversion inefficency of mechanical to electrical energy. Then there is heat loss You can't extend range while paying for all these parasitic loads. The system is another load on the battery, just like wind resistance.


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[imnuts]

Are you a mechanical and/or electrical engineer? If no then sorry but you lack the appropriate knowledge to make that assertion.

You don't need to be a MechE or EE to realize what you're suggesting won't work. It's basic physics. Regardless of when the alternator would be used, you're going to just kill the battery faster. Regenerative braking is the only way to gain power on EVs without losing energy. The only other thing you could do (without a generator) to extend range would be to have a solar roof, and that likely wouldn't gain you much.

Don't you think that if it were so simple to add range to an electric vehicle that someone would have implemented it, or at least shown a technical preview, in the past decade or more of electric vehicles?

 

[HammaMan]

Why they can't just put a damned alternator on the EV's with a diminishing returns charging system to extend the range to say 7-800 miles between mandatory full charge cycles is beyond me...

Um, curious, what exactly would the alternator do for an EV except waste away the range? Is thermal dynamics an offshoot of thermodynamics by chance?

I have an idea, why not just put a bunch of windmills on a lightning as it goes down the road to harness all the 'free' air going by.

 

[BLoflin]

Are you a mechanical and/or electrical engineer? If no then sorry but you lack the appropriate knowledge to make that assertion.

Yes, I have an advance degree in Electrical Engineering, but that's not relevant.

You really don't seem to understand what you are actually proposing. You had an idea, starting "walking" thru it, and made (incorrect) assumptions about what could result, and it seems reasonable to you.

Your mistake could be shown to be incorrect, either by going down all the ways to use battery power to drive an alternator to recharge the same (ok, in your idea, the other 1/2) of the battery, and proving it can't work.

Or you can just stand back, and at the high level, understand what you are proposing violates the laws of physics. You can't use a power source (the battery) to generate additional power to add power back into the power source. What you can do is use power that is "wasted" (generally in heat) and put in a power recovery system to either capture the heat or prevent it in the first place to generate "recovered" power. That is exactly what brake regeneration does. So instead of heating brake pads and rotors to slow down the vehicle, it uses an opposing electrical force to slow down the wheel rotation (using the electric motors running in "reverse") and creates electrical power that is fed back to the battery.

Please don't tell me I don't know how to read, I do, and also I can understand your proposal. We are trying to help you understand your proposal doesn't work.

 

[amschind]

However, Ford patented a range extender using a gas or diesel ICE driving a generator and supplying power to the Lightning's battery through a quick-connect system a few years ago. You would rent the system which the dealer drops into the bed, and with about 20 gals of fuel capacity you could either gain hundreds of miles of range, or extended the towing.
Another version of the same system could just be a battery pack, and if you can access two chargers at once it would not add to the recharge time.
A truck was photographed with an unusually large "toolbox" bearing a box manufacturer's nameplate, but was probably hiding this system being tested in the real world.

This is the tech that I'm most interested in. When you look at the whole landscape of vehicle tech, the two things that stand out are series hybrids (in practice just an EV chassis with most of the batteries removed and replaced with a small ICE and a gas tank) and gasoline compression ignition, particularly 2 cycle. The most fascinating part is that these are pretty old ideas (locomotives have all be series hybrids since the 1940s, and the 2 stroke motor that Achates Power is building is based on the Junkers Jumo/Fairbanks-Morse 38-1/8D which was in every US submarine from the Gato through the more recent Seawolf class).

Fundamentally electric motors have gotten so efficient (maybe the best example is the Remy/Borg Warner HVH), that the expense of converting fuel into rotation then into electrons and then back into rotation is a relatively low amount of overhead vs the benefits. Nissan's series hybrid, the "E-Power" essentially has a stock 3 cylinder running at full bore or off to charge the thing, and that gets very impressive fuel economy by itself. The Mazda Skyactiv-X, which is basically an HCCI engine, also gets impressive thermal efficiency that hasn't really translated into fuel economy because they have been dead set on not pairing it with a hybrid.

I would absolutely love to see this come to market, envisioning something like an F150 with the performance numbers of a Lightning but with ~10% of the battery capacity, a 30 gallon tank and a 1-1.5L HCCI engine/generator.

This just the Achates 2.7L paired with an otherwise stock 10R80.

Obviously, that has all of the warts and foibles of an ICE bolted to the wheels, but they still claimed 42 MPG for the diesel and 37 MPG for the gasoline version! Imagine a smaller version of that just running all out or not at all and providing juice for the traction motors in a Lightning chassis (which also would be lighter by a few thousand pounds).

I feel like the only person that wants this, but I can't see the downside of a truck that gets 40-45 MPG and has the same power/torque numbers as the Lightning and 1200 miles of range that you can refill in 5 minutes.

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