Are Ford Executives Dumb?

[BigJim]

My F-150 is supposed to be built at the end of this month. Since I have been waiting, I have read everything I could about the vehicle on this forum and elsewhere to learn about it. Found this video where a Ford executive discusses the fact that they ‘outsourced’ the 150+ modules to 150 companies including the software. Those companies own the IP (intellectually property) rights and Ford has to go back and ask them to write new software if there is a problem. He states that they will bring the process in-house but it will take many years for that to happen.

Can‘t seem to comprehend how any executive would agree to subcontract ‘core competencies’ to save very little money, (he says that it’s $350-500/vehicle). I see so many issues on this forum that seem to be software related -I.e. BMS, TSM, DSP, etc. Seems that Ford really dropped the ball on this one. When Apple had problems with their iPhone antenna (2 or 3), Steve Jobs called the executive in charge of antennas and fired him on the spot.

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[flatag]

It’s not unusual to outsource work and have the outsourced company own the software rights. I’ve worked in aviation for the last 40 years and that arrangement is fairly common.

 

[BigJim]

It’s not unusual to outsource work and have the outsourced company own the software rights. I’ve worked in aviation for the last 40 years and that arrangement is fairly common.

Thanks for the insight, I don’t know much about the aviation industry. Only thing I read was much of Boeing planes used to be in-house manufactured and they decided to outsource many parts of the plane ( to compete with Airbus). That hasn’t worked out so well.

Maybe it is just the execution then. But I can’t imagine working with 150 separate companies and having to have all the modules work together.

 

[Calson]

With trucks it is important to build them and sell them within a 12-month cycle. Millions of details to be managed to be sure they do not have thousands produced that cannot be sold or need to be recalled.

It is smart to outsource areas where your company lacks the necessary expertise and this is done routinely by companies. Even Apple with its first iPods went to Seagate who in tern went to Seiko to have the miniature hard drives manufactured.

I have seen too many defects in the user interface or the electronics of trucks to think for a second that in-house expertise actually exists. My GM diesel had many problems that involved the sensors and programming for the emissions control system. There was no error recovery and so each time it meant leaving the truck with the dealer and hoping their mechanic could diagnose and fix the problem and 4 out of 5 times it was beyond their capabilities.

I see the same with my 2022 F-150 where the adaptive cruise control instead of gradually slowing the vehicle will reduce the speed by 25 mph or more without warning. It will even do this when the slower vehicle is in the exit lane and not in front of the truck. Rear auto braking would engage repeatedly if I had a bike rack mounted in the receiver until I disabled this "feature".

The Ford's navigation system has a poor database and poor programming that often does not have locations in it and that when driving on city streets alerts me of the next turn too late to actually make the turn. It would send my to cow paths even though it had the setting to include 4WD roads turned off. My $500 Garmin GPS is far better than the Ford that cost me thousands of dollars with the package one is forced to buy.

 

[discothan]

Thanks for the insight, I don’t know much about the aviation industry. Only thing I read was much of Boeing planes used to be in-house manufactured and they decided to outsource many parts of the plane ( to compete with Airbus). That hasn’t worked out so well.

Maybe it is just the execution then. But I can’t imagine working with 150 separate companies and having to have all the modules work together.

Heh.....they all don't work well together on the F150. Lots of little software nuances and glitches.

I work in the software company. Its a lot more cost effective to outsource the work to 3rd party(ies) than interview/hire/train/develop skills internally as future full-time employee. Also outsourcing, on accounting paper, is a operational expense vs. hiring a FTE is a capital expense, or so I have been told by accounting.

 

[JHForman812]

It’s not unusual to outsource work and have the outsourced company own the software rights. I’ve worked in aviation for the last 40 years and that arrangement is fairly common.

as someone in aviation also, its painful to see how long it takes to fix something in the software. only time its priority is if its safety of flight.

 

[BigJim]

Heh.....they all don't work well together on the F150. Lots of little software nuances and glitches.

I work in the software company. Its a lot more cost effective to outsource the work to 3rd party(ies) than interview/hire/train/develop skills internally as future full-time employee. Also outsourcing, on accounting paper, is a operational expense vs. hiring a FTE is a capital expense, or so I have been told by accounting.

I am not so much against outsourcing but not maintaining control over, what I view as key processes, is not very smart. Ford should have access to the code written for each module and should have in-house talent to ensure that all the modules work together (I.e. get rid of electronic gremlins).

I have to say F-150 owners are the best customers. For example, there is a problem (from what I read on this forum) with the BMS module and batteries dying prematurely. Many F-150 owners buy trickle chargers or buy other manufacturers’ batteries when truthfully Ford should fix the issue

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[Mtnman1]

With trucks it is important to build them and sell them within a 12-month cycle. Millions of details to be managed to be sure they do not have thousands produced that cannot be sold or need to be recalled.

It is smart to outsource areas where your company lacks the necessary expertise and this is done routinely by companies. Even Apple with its first iPods went to Seagate who in tern went to Seiko to have the miniature hard drives manufactured.

I have seen too many defects in the user interface or the electronics of trucks to think for a second that in-house expertise actually exists. My GM diesel had many problems that involved the sensors and programming for the emissions control system. There was no error recovery and so each time it meant leaving the truck with the dealer and hoping their mechanic could diagnose and fix the problem and 4 out of 5 times it was beyond their capabilities.

I see the same with my 2022 F-150 where the adaptive cruise control instead of gradually slowing the vehicle will reduce the speed by 25 mph or more without warning. It will even do this when the slower vehicle is in the exit lane and not in front of the truck. Rear auto braking would engage repeatedly if I had a bike rack mounted in the receiver until I disabled this "feature".

The Ford's navigation system has a poor database and poor programming that often does not have locations in it and that when driving on city streets alerts me of the next turn too late to actually make the turn. It would send my to cow paths even though it had the setting to include 4WD roads turned off. My $500 Garmin GPS is far better than the Ford that cost me thousands of dollars with the package one is forced to buy.

I have had ZERO issues with the navigation in my 22. None. It is actually much better than my cell phone connected to it. Plus i never have to worry about losing signal.

 

[Mtnman1]

My F-150 is supposed to be built at the end of this month. Since I have been waiting, I have read everything I could about the vehicle on this forum and elsewhere to learn about it. Found this video where a Ford executive discusses the fact that they ‘outsourced’ the 150+ modules to 150 companies including the software. Those companies own the IP (intellectually property) rights and Ford has to go back and ask them to write new software if there is a problem. He states that they will bring the process in-house but it will take many years for that to happen.

Can‘t seem to comprehend how any executive would agree to subcontract ‘core competencies’ to save very little money, (he says that it’s $350-500/vehicle). I see so many issues on this forum that seem to be software related -I.e. BMS, TSM, DSP, etc. Seems that Ford really dropped the ball on this one. When Apple had problems with their iPhone antenna (2 or 3), Steve Jobs called the executive in charge of antennas and fired him on the spot.

Sounds like you have zero business experience. This is how it works.

 

[PatchManager]

I think Ford is handcuffed in a way, and the current CEO has hinted at that. I think was likely a gradual process where Ford outsourced the development of modules long ago where the module was purely hardware. As time went on, more software/firmware was introduced into the modules and there was not enough forward thinking or a huge cost in transitioning to a different architecture.

 

[BigJim]

I think Ford is handcuffed in a way, and the current CEO has hinted at that. I think was likely a gradual process where Ford outsourced the development of modules long ago where the module was purely hardware. As time went on, more software/firmware was introduced into the modules and there was not enough forward thinking or a huge cost in transitioning to a different architecture.

Probably correct that it snuck up on them. At least they recognize the problem and actively working on fixing it or as Farley says they are working on ‘developing in-house software competency‘.

 

[belairbrian]

As a software development manager, one of the worst things you can do is not own the code. You can contract out the development, but own the rights to the code.

 

[BigJim]

As a software development manager, one of the worst things you can do is not own the code. You can contract out the development, but own the rights to the code.

Agree 100%.

 

[Pelican]

Great discussion here.

IMHO, Ford need not look any further than this forum for the talent it needs to take software development in house. As a lot of us pn this forum have witnessed, the outsourcing provider is not providing the expertise Ford and its custpmers desire. With technology playing such a vital role in the operation of today's vehicles, I beleive it should be developed in house. If not, then why not outsource everything and slap the oval on a Kia; afterall, they already stole the oval from Ford and slapped the letters "KIA" on it, painted a different color and so why not give them the rest of Ford.

I would not be surprised if in the not so distant future we shopped entirely online for a vehicle with the ability to customize nearly everything from the sheet metal, frame, engine and transmission from whomever we desired and assembled by a few select assembly companies that deliver it to your door. This may seem unimaginable; however, with the amount of outsourcing going on now, there's not much being manufactured by Ford or any other automobile manufacturer nowadays.

Keep on trucking!

 

[Ricksc]

They are too busy working on the transformation of the Detroit train station. Spending millions. Not fixing Ford issues we paid thousands for.

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